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Should Imms have access to player lists?
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Well, should imms have access to player lists or not?
Yes, free for all with imms having access to player lists.
30%
 30%  [ 6 ]
No, not at all. Only Dav has access so it's moderated appropriately.
70%
 70%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 20

Author Message
Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Should Imms have access to player lists?

Two options. I vote no.
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Arunore



Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject:

I voted no too. The fact that there are Imms who use this knowledge intentionally or inadvertently is alarming.
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Esivole
Immortal


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 958
Location: Somewhere beyond the present.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:34 pm    Post subject:

Not enough options. If say level 57 or 58 and above or something.
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Faelon
Emissary


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:06 pm    Post subject:

I posted a response to this after yours in the GY Xenyar, but I'll sum up here.

As humans we have biases, and we are incapable of not having them. That's why we need systems in place, to help with that.

If it were me, I'd have one imm/imp (or maybe as Esivole says, over level 57) who have the keys to the account/ip rule enforcement kingdom, as it were. Without that, all that enforcement lies on Davo, which seems a bit much to ask with everything else. You need to be able to trust someone.

(edit) I also think there needs to be a third option. I can't really make a vote here without that, because those two options are pretty extreme.
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Kedaleam
Immortal


Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject:

You guys act like every Imm has access to this. They don’t unless people decide to share information.
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Vhrael
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1085
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:02 pm    Post subject:

"We want OOC enforcement."

"We don't want staff knowing who plays who."

Pick one.
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Ceridwel
Immortal


Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 3385
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject:

Not all imms have this access. You guys are asking for things you don't have all of the information on.
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Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:18 pm    Post subject:

You guys are missing the point completely. It's about prevention, not the cure. The issue will be completely removed if all player list privilege's are stripped, and only ONE person has control over it. That would be Dav.
Remember folks, this would not be an issue is certain imms weren't ABUSING this function. Well, they did. But, is this Ozaru the only incident? How much has this really happened? It shouldn't and it doesn't have to. Take it away.

There was no preventative measures in place, and now we are trying to cure the problem. A couple sour apples spoil the batch. So fuck it. Strip the players lists from them all, except Dav.
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Vhrael
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1085
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:31 pm    Post subject:

I never thought I'd see the day that "defund the AR police" became a thing, but then again I don't think it's ever been raised as an issue until now.

Character account knowledge, IP addresses, etc. is all given to imms based on level, security privilege, etc. and is not just willy-nilly handed out to everyone. If that's being abused or taken advantage of, then Dav and the imps have every right to restrict or remove it, or otherwise deal with the offenders accordingly.

However, I don't want to hear a single word when people blabber about who's playing who via discord, forum, logboard, etc. and someone multi's eq from one char to another just to smoke another player's character, or when they arrange OOC gangbangs to take someone out, or whatever else, if this is taken away from imms. You either allow them/us to have the tools that we've been trusted with (and allow us to use them), or you deal with whatever consequences if it's taken away.

Either way it won't be a big deal for me personally; it'll just mean that I'm less able to do something to help protect the integrity of the game for all of us, but it's also less responsibility so there's that.
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:38 pm    Post subject:

Nice. I believe an intelligence agency would call this blowback. This wasn’t a problem until Dav said imms were doing it. You guys are arguing with the wrong people.
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Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:56 pm    Post subject:

You got that wrong, Mikoos. The problem was already there. It existed. before and after light was shed on it...it was a problem. Being brought to the light didn't create the problem.

We would call this....Exposed.
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:04 pm    Post subject:

It’s a problem if you’re an insider. >.> oh shit I’ve said too much.

Also random question, can a CIA director be a covert whistleblower on himself? Living double lives, etc.

This rabbit hole goes deep man.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:10 pm    Post subject:

This is simple who are the imms abusing it? Have them apologize and the embarrassment should get them to stop
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject:

Yes we can kill the command for a while, that's fine. Just remember though, we're talking about behavior of literally great players (some of whom also volunteer their time as imms). We all care a great deal about this game. I do think this stuff is just bad judgment, but not bad intent. I'll say for the imms behalf we need to get our shit together and also apologize myself. And not to take away from that apology, at all, but I do think you have to take into account there's this distressing pandemic always going on and we're all looking for a way to feel better and not have more to be distressed about. Its an important time to just focus on keeping this game fun and not burn ourselves out with drama all the time. This game has a way of boiling people's emotions over.
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Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:48 pm    Post subject:

Oz, I'm sure it would make you feel better, and I hope it does because I like having you around, if they apologized to you/community. But, be ready to be disappointed if the names are revealed...because there will be a name(maybe two?) you wouldn't expect.

Kill the command for a while and let the dust settle. I think that's a good choice for now...and in time bring it back to certain lvl imms...or with certain conditions, code that logs every time imms use the PlayerList command and must list reason why it was tapped into... or whatever.
Faelon is right, though...can't just have you overseeing all of that forever.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:31 pm    Post subject:

I thought Imms already had access to this information. However, I suspected it was restricted to higher levels.
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Kalist19
Emissary


Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:39 pm    Post subject:

I think it might be a lot more fun for the Imms to not know who is applying to their cabal. When a guy applies it might be exciting - the unknown. Instead of like, oh Jesus it’s Kalist what’s he trying to accomplish, or like holy shit it’s Xenyar I hit the jackpot, they will have to just gauge the char based on what they do and have no underlying expectations of ineptitude or ability.

I have no idea how hard this will make policing though. Might wind up like the Wild West for a bit.

Of course everything I’m saying is entirely without perspective because I don’t dig into or care about who plays who or what is required or not for the normal thankless tasks of the Imms (thank you for doing those tasks by the way). You’re going to wind up with a lot of comments that are missing out on perspective when the boss lets the employees know that the boss isn’t happy with the actions of some managers.

I like Davairus’ point about this being a stressful time in general and that this game is a great escapist outlet. Let’s try to keep it fun for everybody (players and Imms alike).
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:44 am    Post subject:

Currently, I'm considering a new feature where you can just connect to AR and get the who list before you enter the game (similar to how we show the motd at the moment - probably right after) and then if you dont complete your login after seeing that, it'll be a 15 minute wait penalty before you can connect to the game again. I don't know if that's the best solution for us, but the goal at least secure a more fair login process that everyone can feel they are starting off on the same footing with. we dont have resources to track whether people are trying to get info off discord, or using "scout" characters , and it'd probably just save everyone a buncha time. I would like to see if there is support for a feature like that before I go ahead with it
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:48 am    Post subject:

Personally I don't think any change is necessary, unless other players are having similar experiences as I am to where it turned them off from playing why make a change. Along with others having thicker skin and more willing to deal with it, dust themselves off and go at it again probably not worth the time.
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Kalist19
Emissary


Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:51 am    Post subject:

I don’t know if that’s necessary Davairus. Can we leave things as are for now and see if people are more responsible now? I think just even having this big discussion will help people do some introspection and think about their biases.
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