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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 13 hours, 54 mins.

Elf paladin eradication spec
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Elf paladin eradication spec

Here is the list of stuff we have been able to come up with:

This stuff is live already:
- "feint" doesnt work on mobs/players with high awareness
-- this means that, currently, you can eat illegal spice (sold by the thief guild) and prevent elf paladins feinting you
- lightning charge typo was fixed to prevent spamming
- blasphemy check was fixed to prevent paladin skills across all specs
- fencing is now one-handed sword only
- fencing skill improvement via auto-attack was removed to make it take longer to train

Pending (combo of reining in defense and high damage output):
- the light armor "holy armor bonus" is no longer treated like heavy
- fix prompt bug making fencing say they dual wield
- fencing success rate tweak (the change is currently looking at -24%)
- manually entering the feint command is required to be able to feint arrows
- lightning charge requires and consumes a bunch of willpower
- lightning charge runs slower so that it is difficult to hit on a moving target
- errantry and inspiring/bolstering presence no longer stack
- the "25 strength elf" damage is now a favored weapon bonus with one handed swords (prevents stacking with ilromie's 7/7 enchants)
- divine sacrifice to full willpower instead of tons of damroll (knocks out more damroll stacking. option B: it reduces max hp by 100 until wears off. i prefer the willpower option)
- flee causes 10 willpower loss (all paladins)
- fencing will be opened to one-handed spears
- our "just eat spice til the patch" band-aid will be removed

Thinking about:
- revert diminish returns on bash lags
- improve range of vanish
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject:

Nice work. Thanks for the transparency. Appreciate you posting this. I'll add my two cents (if it's worth that much lol)

I like the "thinking about" ones at the bottom, just because they're changes for classes that aren't elf pally.

Clarification on the prompt bug: While fencing they ARE dual wielding right? Isn't it supposed to be a dual wield style? Is that changing or what is the prompt gonna say? What's the bug I guess? Just confused by that one in general.

I know everyone hates lightning charge, but some of this sounds like maybe it'll be nerfing it to death. It is no longer spammable? In discord you mentioned once every 5 minutes. That's a pretty huge cooldown so that's already alleviating a lot of issue with it, making it slower and less accurate on top might make it useless. Especially considering that it is risky for becoming outcast. Stack it all together and it's basically a bye bye. Again I just am throwing out my impressions. I'm no pro at balancing things.

I don't know how much willpower 10 is, but I think I like the flee causes willpower loss idea.


Interested to see what everyone thinks and what happens. Again thanks for posting this Dav
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject:

@hamsandwich: fencing is considered an offensive combat style according to the help file, which for some reason or other means it counts as dual wield (at least until the paladin is disarmed...)
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:36 pm    Post subject:

Like I said, Dav only makes changes after I have a bitch fit and I delete, you are all welcome
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:39 pm    Post subject:

please keep the thread about paladins and not about you
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:46 pm    Post subject:

Eh do as I say not as I do. Graveyard ?
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:52 pm    Post subject:

Here is a comment specifically about the lightning charge concern. It wont need a long cooldown after the change because its going to be hard to build the willpower, especially with the fleeing. The players forced to either break the RP rule to condemn mobs or dump enough hp into divine sacrifice to risk his own ass. I am expecting the more selfish paladins players to get caught "acting like necromancer" going around condemning whatever mobs they can find, just to get the willpower for their charge. That is going to be a new way to get caught breaking your paladin oath. They will explain themselves by saying "the end justify the means" and that is how the character steps into evil. I'm not worried about me giving the game away already on the forum possibly preventing this from happening
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:32 pm    Post subject:

So just looking over the changes and they look pretty good.
Only concern I would have is about the AC on light armor for eradicators since they're damage is getting nerfed pretty hard.
I would think the inspiring presence/errantry not stacking would only take place after the initial errantry when one is frenzied, but once it falls could still stack since don't have extra damage from frenzy.
Also, will the '25 strength' hoo ha also be considered a favored weapon for spears since they will still be technically fencing?
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:16 am    Post subject:

Sure Rothak. Its a fencing bonus anyway. We'll probably want their consecration aura automatic with errantry frenzy, so we can either (A) restore the last aura before they went ham afterward, or (B) just have people type to correct it.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:18 am    Post subject:

Reducing the fencing success rate by 24% will probably already be good enough. Nerfing the damage on multiple fronts, to me, is not a good idea.

Errantry is a replacement for steed and has 2 elements (the movement bonus element and the frenzy element). Frenzy reduces chance of parry by a significant amount - if coupled with the reduction to fencing success rate, it will be painful to use errantry so this aspect of the problem solves itself. The reason why it is possible for errantry frenzy to be used without a care for parry penalty is due to the high success rate of fencing to pick up the slack.

Preventing stacking of the "25 strength elf" bonus with weapon enchantments is a good idea in my opinion.

Divine sacrifice is already a double edged sword. With the low hp base of elf paladins to begin with (most end up around base 710 hp with full hp trains), you need to drain 500 hp for a +10 dam bonus that lasts 10 ticks, which you will need about 2 ticks (17 heals, average 30hp per cure serious) to heal back up to full. I think divine sacrifice is already a rather balanced skill on its own - nothing has changed for this skill before and after the paladin patch, only that it is made available only to eradicator paladins.

Errantry and divine sacrifice had been around for a long time and I don't see anything wrong with those skills. I honestly do not think that the high damage from eradicator paladins stems from these 2 skills or even normal damroll for that matter. As I mentioned before, an elf paladin in fencing with 40+ damroll is doing the same damage as a warrior that has 50+ damroll - this leads me to have a strong suspicion that there is some further damage amplification effect to being in fencing, akin to two-handed damage bonus, maybe from the "enhanced damage" boost?

Eradicator paladins don't have the bells and whistles of the other specs, and I don't see how it is different from a paladin from the past, aside from fencing and it's related lightning charge skill. To me, fencing is the culprit here.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
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Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:25 am    Post subject:

On further thought, have you tried looking into how the code handles recognizing fencing as dual_wield combat style? Maybe that's where the damage might have gone wrong somewhere? Just a guess.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:56 am    Post subject:

There is a deliberate damage bonus for fencing one-handed.. that much is critically important. We can make a choice whether to have a divine sac or not and accordingly make the defense suffer. Time spent healing to full does not balance it, and its lame and boring anyway. I was hoping the laying of hands change would dent it, but it doesnt. Imagine not having that skill and trying to get it added to paladins right now. The reason the eradication paladin is thinner than other specs is BECAUSE of the divine sac. It is sufficiently overpowered to necessitate them being a one-trick pony with everyone sitting around asking themselves what strategy should they use against this guy. We can do better.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 am    Post subject:

In all honesty, as Thalandir I never used divine sacrifice. To me, it wasn't worth it. The duration is too short considering lay on hands can't be used on said individual any more so you end up spamming cure serious and trying to catch ticks. Let's say it takes you 2 ticks to heal to full, well now you're also a bit short on mana. I didn't use it except in the very beginning to experiment with it and afterwards I realized that I would never use it again.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:17 am    Post subject:

You can take a look at my paladin who has lost the ability to use inspiring aura, no longer stores willpower rendering divine might null, and I don't use divine sacrifice anyway, but I still do good damage in fencing. Why it is still viable is due to the good fencing defense and its damage at about 40 damroll.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:18 am    Post subject:

Its nice to hear you havent bothered to used it, makes changing it easier. You could definitely cheese that skill harder. Like for example, when you are sitting around, just wear a bunch of pointless hp stuff, then cast it and drop into real gear. I would be always (literally) casting it, logging out fully buffed, log back on in a week and find the hp refilled, full duration divine sac, Characters get hp back after logging out and their affects dont decay at all. Or just literally quaff a buncha monster potions
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:30 am    Post subject:

elves have 18 strength. Might be hard to carry around pointless hp gear. But more paladins might try now, haha
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:17 pm    Post subject:

Personally, looking through the pending changes list, i would like to think the changes will hit eradicator a little too hard.

If the lightning charge being spammable is already dealt with, then i would say it should be something reliable. It must hit something because inherently there is a risk of hitting a good align mob easily. By making it high risk with no returns will render the skill useless.

Flee causing 10 willpower loss? What is the max willpower? This affects all paladins across the board and willpower is impt to them. the paladins flee a lot.


The nerfs seemed a little too heavy from what i see. Maybe you guys should test it out on the test servers and see how bad it is first.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for your feedback Merlandox.

Regarding the lightning charge - tentatively the new version of lightning charge does NOT do AOE. So that is not an issue at all. And there is a VERY effective use of its slower version.. you can charge someone who you know has spammed into a wall, bashing them into it for better damage. It all depends on your opponents scrambling and making common movement errors. I know also for fact this is nothing to do with ping, and paladins also have no way to dirt kick.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:26 pm    Post subject:

I think nerfing fencing and lightning charge would be enough of a nerf to bring elf pally back into line. If lightning charge requires and consumes willpower then it should still be worth it with the increased speed(I.E. dont slow it down.) With the willpower cost it will have to be a choice between offense and defense, which is a good idea.

Im on the fence about the Holy Armor nerf, but the high dex of elves kinda mitigates it a little, and it kinda creates a tradeoff for gear where you have to trade damage for survivability(AC).

I agree with Ivindel about Errantry and Divine sacrirfice, these should stay as is. It requires a planning and good execution to be able to leverage the damage from both. It also requires those fighting the paladin to strategize against it.

Instead of not having inspiring/bolstering presence stack with errantry, just have it only affect group members of the paladin or remove it. It is a little overkill. Could remove this with something to improve ac to balance the offensiveness of pally out a little.

Fleeing causing willpower loss will be too huge a nerf and needs to be reconsidered. You could make willpower generate faster or easier to offset this idea if implemented.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:56 pm    Post subject:

The lightning charge slow down is only a slight slowdown so that it's not an auto hit against a guy 5 rooms away and running. The way we did it feels FUN. I had a blast testing it.
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