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Warrior buff think tank
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:49 pm    Post subject: Warrior buff think tank

So I was thinking of some stuff warriors could get maybe other people have suggestions to.
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Mikoos



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:48 am    Post subject:

Do tell.
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Ceridwel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:39 am    Post subject:

I've always thoughts counter should drain moves instead of mana.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:29 am    Post subject:

well firstly I thought about warriors getting a bandage skill that is like herb or whatever. This can be only used by shredding cloth armor making bandages that heal you slightly. Not a continued healing affect. massive cooldown between uses. Different level of bandages determines amount of healing. IE 5 bandage stack heals 60 hp where 2 heals 25. cap on stacking bandages no more than 5. and they decay. I also thought about something like wild smash given to warriors. I don't like overhead crush the lag and identifiability of the skill makes it virtually useless in PK unless you have a horseshoe in your asshole.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject:

I think an infrequent bandage is a good idea in principle. That's coming from the view of an old warrior player who used to rely on berserk for its healing. Putting the parry loss on berserk took away from that. I definitely don't like the idea of being possible collect 500+ bandages as that would mean hardcore player ends up invulnerable, and that ultimately just heads for a thief sack-gank anyway. We have enough frustration with that already with the potions we have. A berserk-like skill typed every 8-12 hours with a "shoulder pop" (maybe a minor con penalty so you borrow the hp out of your future regen and effectiveness of spam quaffing pond water) might fit our game better. It might actually do something to level the playing field.

I think your point about overhead is along the right lines because it speaks to warriors having reliable lag skills. That is great for players on slower connections. Hobble crumples on flee was my favorite thing out of anything on a 50 warrior because it would force them to stay and fight without feeling like you'd just cheese bashed them. I think the hobble penalty from fleeing being removed from flying is something that is the right time to undo.

Also you can currently attack while "blurry eyed" (i.e. in late phase of dirt) which is not ideal for warriors who are trying to avoid heavy skirmish fights.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject:

I mean having to farm bandages that decay and only stack to a limit stops over using them also gives range of healing based of yourself. You want that awesome healing 1 time with cool down of 24 hrs then you have to be prepared for it. Also it should not stack with berserk. Berserked you are to angry to focus on healing your wounds. And as far as the lag skill id rather have hobble faceplate you longer. Basically unless you stay in combat there is no downside to hobble. Maybe give it smal small small percent chance to do faceplate again.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Based off of abilities for the DND warrior:

Second Wind: - Perhaps similar to the bandage idea that BF was suggesting. Regardless a reliable heal based upon level with a reasonable cooldown. Something like berserk w/out the massive movement loss and the bonus to damage.

Action Surge: +x amount bonus to fourth attack for a relatively short duration. This would allow for a "nova-like" ability for warriors, perhaps.

Indomitable: For X period of time, if you fail a maledictive save (perhaps could be used for any save...indom afflictive is a buff against afflictives) a reroll happens in the background based upon this skill that replaces the first roll (if fauled). It could be a buff that fades after a period of time or when the buff is used.

Improved Critical - A slightly enhanced critical hit

Just spitballing.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:03 pm    Post subject:

Protect - Protect target could allow a warrior to intercept melee hits for the PC target. This could require a shield be worn.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:17 pm    Post subject:

I didnt even think about enhanced damage buff specific to warriors good kdea
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject:

@STIEHL that sounds like the knight cabal skill I wont go into detail but we can just rescue
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:50 pm    Post subject:

Ahh ok.

Shield Mastery: Passive - If wearing a shield reduces the damage taken from AOE attacks.

Armor Penetration: Passive - Ignore a percentage of armor value.

Precision Strike: Ability - Damage based ability that ignores armor value.

Warriors Resolve: Passive: - When below 25% health, bonus to armor, saves.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:47 pm    Post subject:

I gotta admit, the second wind/shoulder pop thing sounds cool.
So does armor penetration. Being able to negate some of the AC could be great, makes sense for a warrior to uniquely have too. Could be scaled to opponent's AC so it does more the more armor they have. Idk.

Cool ideas guys
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:17 pm    Post subject:

Perhaps a bit more thinking outside the box a bit. These ideas are kinda just heal/damage. There's gear available for damage and potions to heal, so we could actually leave that as is. And AC is a minefield. Just off the top of my head, these are a few headaches that I can think of when I played my warriors.

- slow connection speed (especially when i played from UK, but lately i still experience 3+ second lagouts) ..favors stuff like hobble /bash being more effective. faceplant removal for flying character kinda sucks. i'd be interested in something that makes that any better

- i feel like i would rather not be disarmed, if you could let me choose a job like weaponsmith that gives me a non-disarm perk, i'd probably take that one. double that if it makes my inventory weapons harder to steal

- sack-steal is also a big headache. maybe a warrior who is a sailor would be better at keeping their sacks (tie it to themselves with ropes). so this character would be less likely to join warlords as his consumables arent as urgent (bat bones dont belong in sack)

- insert something sinister with an assassin background (a warrior with pick lock or something)

I think ideally you would have to write a decent background to be able to qualify for the above perks to explain why your character is a weaponsmith and therefore hard to disarm etc. Having loads of small little things to choose would give us a lot of variety. This doesnt have to be just a warrior thing either. The gods have already a "grant" command that they can give you a perk skill from some different class. The underlying idea is to figure out what your headaches really are and be able to just relieve yourself of one of them in return for rp.
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BlackWidow



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:27 am    Post subject:

One possibility which comes to mind is a superior disarm of some sort... Maybe a successful offhand disarm while in two-handed combat style (assuming it doesn't do this already?) makes the offhand unusable for a time. Alternatively, add in the thief's cheap shot... I could totally see an especially dexterous warrior (e.g. elf or drow, possibly avian) lunging at somebody with a quick jab as they attempt to reach for their weapon. Of course, the problem with this idea is it is not entirely relevant to halfling warriors with their ability to disarm AND pick up an opponent's weapon...

Potentially, a mace can be used for a particularly hard blow... Something like a DK's pulverize or thief's blackjack only I would expect it to deal heavy damage if it doesn't knock the target out.

There's probably other possibilities with various weapon types for things that specific weapon does well. Whereas a number of other classes seem to have special abilities they get with specific weapons, warriors do not (and I don't count favoured weapon bonuses).
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:03 am    Post subject:

I like the faction off portion of it like dav is saying. Maybe an assassin warrior can poison his weapons? Not as effective as shadows obviously but that would be cool.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:07 am    Post subject:

Favoured weapon bonuses are kinda moot because of the lore proficiency tie in "nerf" and because of the way weapons have to be changed pretty much nonstop all the time. Makes using a favoured weapon only an infrequent thing. imo.

Some of the other stuff you described starts to border on existing cabal powers.

Offhand disarm does cause arm distention. It might only work if you are overbeared though, not just any two hand.

Tying skills into a background is a cool idea, though it kinda shies away from the point of this thread i think. Also I think it might just end up causing everyone to all be shoe horned into the same background in order to get the 'best' skill for the current meta.

I agree that getting a sack stolen is frustrating. But it's frustrating for basically all classes. Also kinda niche and uncommon.

For me the most frustrating thing about a warrior is being essentially 100% reliant on weapon type and combat style match up and then getting dirt kicked. Dirt kick makes you not only have reduced hitroll, but also unaware of opponents weapons, and unable to switch your own weapons. This persists throughout the watery eyes. I'm not really suggesting any changes because I don't have any great ideas right now. But building off Dav's headaches idea, thats my biggest one personally.

Also being reliant on weapon matchup like I said, and when you switch weapons you do NOT get the advantage until 1 round after the switch. Rogues get it instantly but not warriors. This makes capitalizing on others mistakes just a tiny bit harder, because you either throw a hobble while NOT advantaged, even though you technically should be, or you have to wait a round twiddling your thumbs while missing out on concentration.

Those are just my headache ideas Dav. Sorry I don't actually provide any suggestions beyond that lol.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:55 am    Post subject:

For warriors, there are a few things that have always sort of been bugging me:

1) Two-handed style - I hardly use two-handed styles myself because of the mediocre defense mainly, coupled with when damage output is not necessarily higher than dual-wield due to lesser attacks proccing per round. There are also a few skills that have additional lag for usage which may or may not make sense in my opinion:

- Doublegrip -> lags 1 round when gripping, this I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

- Windmill cleave -> windup 1 round lag, then 2 rounds lag after execution. This is the warrior's only AOE skill to bring hidden/camo opponents out of hiding, I don't see the reason of having a 1 round lag windup, just like faerie fog or resonating wave (monk) having no windup lag. The 1 round lag windup makes this skill practically useless because any hidden opponent can see it coming from a mile away (3 secs reaction time) and the 2 round lag after cleaving opens up the warrior to attacks in a PK situation. Imagine the warrior windmill cleaves, opponent leaves the room during the 1 round windup, then comes back into the room in defensive style and attack the warrior during the 2 round lag after execution. It's just shit, so when the thief/shadow/ranger hides/camo, I just buzz off normally.

- Overhead crush -> windup 1 round lag, then 2 rounds lag if successful but 3 rounds lag if fail. This I could maybe guess that the reason for windup lag is due to how devastating the skill can be when executed right, since it disarms and lags the opponent. There are prerequisites for the usefulness of this skill though. For a low-str warrior, this skill is really quite useless, because you only rake (if your str is lower than opponent) the opponent (not sure if it is able to lag too though).

- Riposte -> Right now, if I am not wrong, two-handed+doublegrip only provides a riposte success bonus to attacks from offhand weapons. I feel that this is insufficient in the current state. Just like how monks got a defense buff of sorts (from the block skill) that triggers on superior style, I feel that warriors should also get a similar defense buff in this regard since two-handed is also one of the less used style (not sure about others, but certainly true for me) for warriors, similar to panda style for monks.

2) Overpower - This is a skill that was a relatively new addition which plays on the unique identity of a warrior being a class that utilizes mastery of his skills to gain a competitive edge in combat. I like the idea behind it but the usefulness of the skill itself is really questionable. I know that under the hood it executes the mastered skill at a higher level (hence overpowered) for perhaps a higher success rate, but from actual experience, it does not seem to work as intended if it is indeed supposed to increase the success rate. Rather than making overpower work in such a generic way, I thought that it will be really interesting to make overpower work like a skill augment of sorts. For example, if you overpower bash, an overpowered bash can lag longer or have no diminishing returns at all? Or if you overpower a hobble, it can even cause flying targets to faceplant? Or if you overpower a windmill cleave or overhead crush, you remove the 1 round windup? Overpowered disarm could cause arm distension and prevent the opponent from re-wielding the weapon immediately? I think the possibilities are there and these augments will add an entirely new layer of interesting stuff, but of course if this kind of augments actually get implemented, a delicate balance needs to be maintained and well thought out and tested.
Haha... I can't believe I am saying this because I do not like additional gauges, but heck even warriors can get an "overpower" gauge that fills up from using certain combat skills or staying in superior style, and this gauge can feed into these skill augments. Although, I will really hate it if this makes training overpower a pain in the ass lol.

When you ask me about the combat aspect of warriors, the above-mentioned are what strikes out at the top of my list.
Just to share, I play from Singapore and have to contend with 200+ms delay when playing this game. A warrior is normally not the ideal class to play with high ping since PK success depends on fast-paced weapon switching, hitting murders and the lucky bash, and good-old tracking. A warrior does not have spells (misdirection, curse, sleep, summon, etc) that could disrupt movement or stick to the target, but I suppose it is also true for other warrior-type classes like berserkers, rangers and monks, so we all have to depend on good-old tracking to make it work, and a good ping definitely helps, which is a luxury I do not have.
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Stiehl26



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject:

That is some solid info there Iv. @Dav, would it make sense to have 3 warrior subclasses? It seems the direction we are headed in regards to class evolution.

I also think ivindel's input should be reviewed, as some of them may be nice quality of life changes.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:58 pm    Post subject:

Everything Ivindel said is true.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject:

I have to agree with most of what Ivindel said as well.

Windmill cleave is super duper niche. Basically never gets used in pve let alone pvp except for the rare need to bring someone out of hiding who you are VERY confident you'll not die to. Because it is basically just asking for you to eat a sidestep.

Same with overhead. Remember seeing those logs of Dakrog using overhead and everyone freaking out because no one had ever done that before? lol. Also from my experience he only ever used it successfully like 20% of the time. So even the most pro overheader ever probably thinks overhead is dumb. (hopefully he'll chime in here and confirm or deny, since obviously I'm speaking out of my ass here)

Overpower affects are definintely hard to notice. I still use it on a few skills sometimes just out of blind faith that it actually helps, and because there's not really any penalty to using it in those circumstances. BUT, I believe there is a penalty to using overpower in some situations. Namely, overpower will lag you even if the skill doesn't happen. For example, if you overpower trip and your target flees before it happens, then you try to trip thin air. Normally this just means nothing happens. But because you overpowered the trip you end up just lagging yourself for no reason. Sitting there with your thumb up your ass like an idiot. So using overpower on lag skills is actually something I don't ever do. Also I'm not entirely sure, but with trip specifically, the "self lag" of a trip is pretty low and the "self lag" of overpower might be longer? So even if you manage to successfully overpower trip you might lag yourself longer than if you had just regular tripped. So that seems kinda dumb. Not certain on that part tho.
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