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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 7 hours.

Warrior buff think tank
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:26 am    Post subject:

Just throwing this out there, duels are often against lower geared warlord recruits. Not that thoom can’t take credit for a large portion. But duels are not a holistic view of a class.
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Bladefury

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Joined: 11 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:53 am    Post subject:

Thank you stiehl. Fuck off ozaru.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:55 am    Post subject:

We can use bow and point blank dont really see use for bow being used since we can benefit greater as warriors from polearms or staffs. Better defence etc
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:44 am    Post subject:

I mentioned bows because I think you guys are leaving out something important. It isn't having better defenses that causes a victory. Its having better defenses than THE OPPONENT. So if you are wearing a polearm against dual wield, you have parry and dodge and the opponent has parry and dodge. But if you are wearing a bow vs the opponent, you have point blank (i.e. basically parry with extra attack) and dodge, and they are defenseless. So you DO have a way to have a much stronger defense than your opponent. And they cannot ignore the advantage in offense. They have to adapt because the bow will unleash hell. Other than maybe strike of the cobra, its the quickest damage in the shortest possible amount of time.

What comes to mind from talking to bladefury is that there is an additional factor to consider which is vulns. Vulns can do enough extra damage to make a character feel like they are out a defense. Also this might possibly crap on my bows theory, written above. I noticed this when I was working on paladins - one-handed/shield damage was almost as good as two-handed so levelling with set parry was actually not worth it. My guess is vulns are rubbing things raw. So maybe what we're after is a way to mitigate your vulns a bit. I am sure giants use the berserk to cover mental vuln.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject:

The biggest problem with berserk to cover mental vuln is giant's dodge is shitty, so parry is their absolute only reliable defense (besides shield block) and berserk makes parry garbage. So berserk drawback kinda hits giants extra hard. Plus berserk drops 50 AC, and giants already have the lowest AC out of anyone, so dropping 50 makes an already shit AC even worse. And giants have a really small mana pool, so using berserk and instantly dropping 50% of mana pool means now you only have 100 mana and you only regen like 3 per tick (that's while awake).
Lots of things are very double edged.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject:

Berserk is actually similar to using bow here - you trade defense for offense. "A good defense is a strong offense". ... this is the way.

I have seen warriors at 50 that start out looking for damroll and end up trying to get a shit load of AC to protect themselves from a vuln. The latter doesnt seem like playing like a warrior to me. It doesnt really sound warrior-like to keep stopping to heal either. Both of those things sound like a different class. Sounds like a ranger.

Warriors theme is run around half-naked in a loin cloth swinging a big dumb axe and just relying on a naturally large hp / armor. I could be mistaken, but I think we need the player thinking about "all-out offense" with warrior if anything. So from the skills, maybe lets not beat about the bush, 2 handed defensive skill might be asking for a minimal bit of help here? It seems like you need a bit of damage reduction to soak awful vulns so you arent thinking so much about them (of course without making them totally irrelevant). I think the parry penalty in berserk totally succeeds at doing the opposite and is therefore the root of the problem, especially stacked with vulns.

If that is the case then how about some options (1 or more)
- an elemental canyon "rainbow warrior" set that kinda sucks but if you wear all 5 pieces you get an elemental resistance.
- a potion of resist elements (warlord stance would get the effect)
- a toughness skill like iron body
- just give warriors a much better natural AC (like whatever is opposite of berserks neg)
- stop having the parry penalty in berserk. FWIW I removed that from tiger style last patch because it made the style rather unuseable.

Also just a general observation that a bunch overpowered equipment will still overwhelm any reasonable change we try to make here. Its important to keep addressing and optimizing the eq balance. Definitely no fingers pointed at all, but just for example, you can engrave a low level light armor set piece onto a high level heavy rare armor. That might be just a little bit over the top, and causing us to think we have class balance issues.
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Dogran
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Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:30 pm    Post subject:

Balan always had a bow. I totally raped with it if you dual wielded. I had polearms too but used bow more.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject:

I think warriors should absolutely get bows. I've always thought of them as the martial weapon masters, so if there's a weapon type they should be able to learn it. That's not to say they should get the special ranger skills like called shot or anything.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:35 am    Post subject:

Warriors do have bows. I've been meaning to try them out, thanks for the reminder.

RE: making berserk penalties lesser
I'd love that. Maybe the fact I love it so much means it's too strong if penalty removed. Maybe we could at least reduce the crippling 3-round failure lag, and reduce the MV points it eats?
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:37 am    Post subject:

The move points it eats can be a pain in the neck for sure. But with athleticism that was already relieved a bit. Honestly athleticism is pretty epic. So while I do wonder if making berserk penalties lower can border too strong, like Stephen says (I mean really that could be true of any skill ever if you go too far) I think that making it eat less move is the least likely to have any positive impact at all.
Changing the failure lag wouldn't make succeeding at it any more enticing. But I will admit that the failure lag is LONG af. Especially when you use it as a heal lolol
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:26 am    Post subject:

[quote]you use it as a heal[/quote]
This is the best use case I've found so far. Never used it as a damage output boost yet
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject:

Yeah I have to honestly agree, again, Stephen. I have never used berserk as increased damage output (aside from the niche time here and there during boring exp grinding) and I have very rarely used it as a mental vuln aversion either, unless in conjunction with the heal/extra attack giants get.

The drop to parry and AC is just real nasty
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:08 pm    Post subject:

OK here is what I have so far:

A) 2H clobber/overhead disarms follow after the player (not the victim) comes out of skill lag, so victim only get screwed if they just sit in the whole thing and don't react. Long windup is unnecessary, but overhead can keep a shorter one to help balance the high damage. These skills should cost a few movement points also.

B) Berserk seems over-built. It heals well, adds decent damage/mental resistance, but reduces parry/AC, drains tons of mana+mv. That's just too much logic. So far my thoughts here is just put the mental resistance onto warcry, and have the massive mana cost instead come from trying to sleep with berserk. I'll check the parry defense reduction isnt overboard but it seems good to have something there.

C) Players are not using bows for reasons I do not understand well right now, but the 2 factors above make bows more appealing.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:19 pm    Post subject:

I will not speak for everyone, but I guess I'm willing to put my own reasons out in the open and expose how noob I potentially am.

The reason I do not use bows on warriors is honestly the same reason I don't use polearms. Rare limits. Is it a dumb reason? Probably. But there are a lot of different weapons to swap between as a warrior. You gotta keep combat style and weapon type advantage in as many situations as possible. You also need to have strong physical type damage and magical type damage weapons, again for every combat style and weapon type possible. Thats a LOT of weapons! One thing that makes this easier to manage as a warrior is double grip. Now you can have a single weapon function as a one handed and two handed weapon! Versatility opens up and you can achieve the above easier. Also high dex races normally have weight issues, and high strength races don't use bow as well (dex based weapon, but maybe this is negligible?)
Bows don't do this. They are one single combat style. It sucks an entire rare into a single use. So instead of having a bow to manage two-handed style, I have something else and double grip it.

Is that a good reason? Probably not, no.
But now you know my reasoning. Maybe others share it.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:39 pm    Post subject:

Well it sounds like you are after BiS. There has to be some give and take there. But on principle, I don't have a problem with adding more transforming weapons to the game. e.g. I can't see why we couldnt have like "Vaelsram", blade of conquerors just be pretty much an axe on a collapsing pole. Maybe a new magic one-handed rare called "the answer" that just morphs to match weapon type if you at least picked the right skill to use
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:51 pm    Post subject:

I don't know what BiS means.
I didn't really expect my comment to lead to any changes or anything. I couldn't even think of any way that you could change it, but your examples work I guess. I was just saying that's my dumb reason for not normally carrying bows.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:55 pm    Post subject:

BiS = best in slot. Anyway, Balan was a storm giant warrior knight. I always had Summersong and for versatility, I used double grip. It worked very well for me.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:42 am    Post subject:

Bows are absolutely worth using. Having weapons for all situations is how to do it for sure. You have to pick and choose which of those weapons you want to be non-rare though. Like starfoil weapons, or darkhaven/valour weapons. Very viable.Dual wield sword and dagger is popular...bow is the answer.

Just had a thought. Anybody use reflex mode with a bow? Point blank is sperate from second, third and fourth attack, right? So in reflex maybe you can get the one attack a round plus the point blank, while maintaining the defensive advantage of reflex and minor counter attacks in offers.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject:

[quote]Players are not using bows for reasons[/quote]
For me, it's just that I'm an idiot, and never used bows in my life. So they seem "weird". I'll try them soon.

FYI several fights I've done badly in, I was supposed to be using 2H-seg (bow) for combat/wpn adv, so I'm looking forward to trying it.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:48 am    Post subject:

It seems like bows would be a welcome item in any inventory because you covered a combat style and have access to loads of damage types from arrows. I can see wanting to take your favored weapon instead of bow though.

Druid staff, nunchukas, ranger bow, healer staff, shrunken heads are all decent ways to reduce pressure on inventory slots and none of them seem like they are creating a huge unfairness.

So how about we just make it possible to craft a favored weapon.. it could be at the forge in Seringale or it could be done at an anvil in your lair similar to how we make chairs.

Example of how this could work

- supply 3 of the weapon you are trying to make, avg of level makes the weapon level so if you want to make a level 50 two handed axe you need 3 level 50 two handed axes. the weapon level affects the ave dam
- add an ingot to set an extra affect e.g. silver ingot makes damroll, platinum ingot makes hp, gold makes armor. the amount bonus you get is level of ingot

Obviously because it is a favored weapon, the extra ingot affect is personal taste.
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