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Warrior buff think tank
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject:

Would adding silver make it a silver weapon? Cause I could get behind that for the races that have a vuln to silver.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Based only on recent logs of Lumubella vs Chul it seems like silver material vuln is kinda meh anyways. Pretty limited on the evidence for that claim tho.

That is an interesting idea there Dav. Adding silver to a favoured that adds hitroll could be crazy, making it like fully enchanted. But adding hp and armor to a weapon would be too. Depending on the avg that a level 50 has it could be quite useful to warriors. Would the weapon itself be rare though? Seems not, right, because that's kind of the point? Making it not count to rare limits.

I think it is a neat idea and could add something to the game and be fun. But I don't know that it really solves any warrior issues that this thread was originally aimed at. Just my two cents.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:16 am    Post subject:

Not a big fan of anymore weapon morphing into different weapon types. Get the eviscerator if you want that. Its's unique for a reason.
How about a weapon or two that a crazy brilliant wizard crafted in some ancient tower...the weapon could magically change its material type. "The sword(or whatever, mace, dagger..) swirls about forming its material into splintery oak wood...or swirls about into a cold dark iron.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:44 am    Post subject:

Like a material/damage type version of the eviscerator? That's pretty cool. Magic damage types included or just various material versions of "slash"?
Switching between iron/silver/fire/ice would be pretty sick.

To target back onto warrior specific things. Dav you mentioned you removed the parry penalty from tiger stance, but kept the AC nerf. But you also mentioned you did not like the idea of removing parry penalty from berserk. Can I ask your reasoning there?

Have we moved past the original "pop shoulder" idea or whatever you had called it, that provides a small heal to a warrior, like an on the fly first aid thing?

I think warriors in AR fill the niche of nearly infinitely versatile (within the bounds of melee combat) and kings of physical endurance. Obviously their endurance is going to be outshined by magical means, such as a healer and what not. But their athleticism seems like something that could coincide with a formed of regen as well. Either by increased hp regen (I know berserkers used to have this, but it was deemed too OP at some point, right?) or by some kind of "get back into the fray" heal. Obviously they shouldn't turn into healers, but even shadows can heal themselves,
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:52 am    Post subject:

OK so lets summarize. What we have started here is a warrior thread but what we are really trying to do is improve our melee combat system. We want people to think carefully before they make the decisions they make. a heavy attack should be slow to perform. an aoe'ing attack shouldnt do as much damage because its hitting a bunch of people. in AR, everybody is vulnerable after their skills because they are in recovery from skill lag

i.e. skills have windup (sometimes) -> contact -> recovery

the wind-up skills leave the player using them vulnerable for a bit BEFORE too, either due to a weapon switch or a flee/dirt. so we have to be more careful using those. i would say windups need to be max 2 seconds for this reason.

Now for overhead ...which currently appears to have a 3 second windup... which as I said seems to need to be lowered to 2 tops, we could consider including that if you are IN WINDUP, you cannot autoattack or parry/dodge/block so that forces you to consider the overhead timing very very carefully, as you would when firing a shotgun, and then the big damage will feel absolutely more justified, because some caution/timing was needed.

on the receiving end of that, if the victim tries to counter the overhead by wearing their shield, what we could do there is make it need to be done practically instantly before the overhead lands, so that it isnt too easy to counter overhead that way. same thing goes for a windmill cleave. i think we'd want people to time those windups more thoughtfully and other people time their counters thoughtfully too.
Now, since the delay between rounds is 3 seconds, and max is only 2 seconds, the combat should in theory be easier to read because we've cut the spam out, and people can get a feel for when a counter will work without combat spam bleeding their eyeballs out.

does that sound better for overhead? or way too hard ? we can get back to talking about berserk parry as well btw, but before we do that, I'm just going to mention I really can't and dont want to try to remember what half these combat/weapon type skills do. However, if I have to windup a sidestep for a second, and the other person switches to dual wield at just the right time to get a free hit on me, personally I can say I am 100% ok with that, and have no problem with remembering that can happen. So that might be better than what we have been doing.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:15 am    Post subject:

I wanna clarify something from my recent PVE fights, re: overhead having big damage.

1) Sideswipe: 1.5 round lag only, you are wearing a shield, so good defense, and while my normal attacks are doing DISEMBOWEL, sideswipe is doing a consistent DISMEMBER/MASSACRE. And sideswipe does the cool "rakes their weapon for a round" or "knocks them down" too. I think it's awesome.

2) Overhead by comparison is a let down, given how it's been talked about here as hard to use but big payoff. While I'm doing DISMEMBER with normal hits, overhead is doing maim/decimate, even a maul! The damage is worse than a normal attack. Perhaps it's a training or gear issue, but I've yet to see one do a MASSACRE+ for me.
[/list]
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Vevier
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:40 pm    Post subject:

In my experience playing warrior and ranger, if you force warriors to step out of the fight to overhead, like rangers have to with called shot, it would make it even less viable. There's no amount of damage less than oblits that are worth eating two rounds of free hits for. I never used called shot in battle, but I had a lot of success with overhead. The windup is annoying but not too bad if you are double gripping. I think I only bothered when it was double gripped.
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:35 pm    Post subject:

If I remember correctly, an overpowered overhead can break protective shield. That's a big deal.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:52 pm    Post subject:

[quote]If I remember correctly, an overpowered overhead can break protective shield. That's a big deal.[/quote]

Whhaaaatt??!!

That certainly isn't common knowledge. Here's a follow up though. Almost everyone who uses prot shield, also uses a regular shield. So aren't they just gonna block the overhead?

And I definitely have not ever had an overhead do lowercase damage like Stephen is saying. It's always more than regular attacks are hitting for. I still feel like it's less than Dav is saying. (I would NEVER have compared it to hellstream like he did, it's never been that much damage) But it does anywhere from the same to a step above regular attacks. Maybe two steps above sometimes. Also, even at 90%+ proficiency it misses on mobs about 1/3 of the time.

Those are rough numbers based on memory and not recent actual testing.
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:16 pm    Post subject:

Even if they block the overhead with a physical shield they'd have to recast prot shield before you got to bash them. That's a mana drain and lag which opens up opportunity for the warrior. I don't recall ever seeing the prot shield break happen though (could be because of infrequent use of overhead, dunno)
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject:

Just to clarify confusion, rounds are 3 seconds apart, so a 2 second cooldown would mean require timing input to slip it in between rounds, not get caught. I can't think of a single skill in the game like that so I'll just write it out.

Scenario 1: overhead timed properly and not countered

Code:

<1000hp>
You parry bob's attack.
Bob's attack maims you.
Your slash dismembers Bob.
Bob's has a few cuts and bruises.

<950hp>
You raise your polearm for a mighty overhead attack!

(2 secs pass)

<950hp>
Your overhead crush === OBLITERATES === Bob!
Bob is knocked to the ground.

<950hp>
You parry bob's attack.
Bob's attack has been raked aside.
Your slash dismembers Bob.
Bob's has big nasty cuts and scratches.


Scenario B: overhead is timed poorly

Code:

<1000hp>
You parry bob's attack.
Bob's attack maims you.
Your slash dismembers Bob.
Bob's has a few cuts and bruises.

<950hp>
You raise your polearm for a mighty overhead attack!

(1 sec pass because you did it late)

<950hp>
Bob's attack maims you.   (defs not working)
Bob's attack maims you.
Your slash dismembers Bob.
Bob's has big nasty cuts and scratches.

<900hp>
Your overhead crush === OBLITERATES === Bob!
Bob is knocked to the ground.


In addition I was saying if you wanted to do a counter-move, like wear a shield, it would give you a free hit on the warrior if your own timing was good. Same with clobber.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:34 pm    Post subject:

Prot shield breaks anyways. Ok. I haven't tested this much and so I could be way off, but I feel like the way it is currently, if you overhead and it gets blocked by a shield you suffer THREE rounds of lag (from the time of the block, so 5 total rounds of lag).

Interesting idea Dav.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject:

Right, so what I was saying is if you wear a shield to block an overhead, you'd need to either (A) already be wearing it, or (B) time that correctly yourself to cause a big overhead lag. Its crappy, otherwise.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:35 am    Post subject:

Demonstrating overhead crush damage:

Your poisonous bite devastates an imperial cityguard!
An imperial cityguard is in awful condition.

An imperial cityguard's weapon is easily overwhelmed by your overhead crush.
Your overhead crush injures an imperial cityguard.
You disarm an imperial cityguard!
An imperial cityguard is in awful condition.

An imperial cityguard rubs the dirt out of his eyes, but they're still watering.
You dodge an imperial cityguard's punch.
Your poisonous bite MUTILATES an imperial cityguard!
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:10 am    Post subject:

that is a waste of time to paste that
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:46 am    Post subject:

Dav, you probably think this is silly, but I was quite offput by your words.

I'm not sure exactly what they mean because it's like you didn't seem to finish your statements, making me feel like something so obvious I'm stupid to not understand you?

It's probably a me thing, but there are always nicer ways to talk, and you'll often get better outcomes when you use them Very Happy

So, as my point has been - is there a bug causing overhead to do not enough damage - my best guess is you mean either:
1) There's no point trying to debug a bug here, and this isn't a bug reporting place. Report a bug if I think there's a bug. I'm derailing the thread.
2) The way overhead works is so obvious, and I'm just wasting everyone's time talking about it? In which case, I'll seek more education.


IDK... I'll go with (1) I think. Can you please confirm what you mean, because I do wanna contribute.

-------

Regarding the shorter focus period for overhead, I think that sounds like a good idea to encourage more overhead-ing, by reducing 1 of the negatives slightly.

-------

Regarding berserk, I'm just not sure what to do with it. I don't personally see it as so powerful that it requires such a noticeable negative (minus parry) when you cast it. The other costs (move, mana, 3 round fail lag) are significant enough IMO.

Probably I'm just looking at it wrong, and should ideally be using it at the very end of a fight, when I've put an opponent on the run, so I wanna be all out attack? Instead of a heal to keep me in a fight longer, in case I might win?
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:02 am    Post subject:

we're trying to have intelligent high-level discussion of gameplay for overhead, which we all know is OP to be instant, and you are instead in here posting shitty low level overheads done upon a sanced mob. dude we are talking about level 50 here smoking people with the bloodfilled voulge not your ave 16 fanatic priest's staff. you did not prove a point. so i said it is a waste of time
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject:

If warriors get a buff lets give rangers double kick, or no lag on called shot. I mean not all skills are meant for pk, some skills are for i dunno ranking and mobs. Hobble, bash and 4th attack are not enough? you need to oblit someone, disarm their weapons and lag them at the same time instantly?
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:34 am    Post subject:

I think overhead just needs to be made more like clobber. Right now it is an inferior and borderline useless ability. If it is made more like clobber then it becomes as useful as clobber and fulfills the role for which it was intended. It can also not be argued to be OP without also saying that rogues have had an OP ability for ages, which I don't think anyone is saying.

By trying to make overhead into something different from clobber we create an opportunity to do something like Ozaru is worried about, where we end up with an unintentionally overpowered ability. Or the exact opposite happens and we make it useless and wasted our time.

That's just my opinion of a simple solution. But I'm high right now, so if I don't make any fucking sense then I apologize.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject:

Thanks for clarifying Dav, I'll do more research once I'm not a shitty lowbie.
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