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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 12 hours, 24 mins.

Monk
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Niktoo



Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:46 pm    Post subject: Monk

Give monk a fourth attack per round (8 with monky)
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:56 am    Post subject:

Dont monks already get four possible?
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject:

No, monks get 3 attacks per round, every round. There's no variation.

If you use fists of fury you get the chance to have a 4th attack in one round. But you have reduced parry. It drains chii, and it only lasts a few rounds max, or shorter if you run out of chii. Also the proc chance of the 4th attack is like 1%. I don't know what it is honestly but it is awfully awfully low and thats why no one ever uses it because the pay off is like next to nothing.

I don't know if giving monks an extra attack every round would be balanced or not. Would be too strong. Maybe look into fists of fury and make it actually viable instead of worthless?
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:48 am    Post subject:

Boxing gloves for monks? lol
Brass knuckles?
Toe spikes?
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject:

Monks did used to have 4 attacks, but it was normalized down to being the same as 3. Unfortunately four attack monks was not implemented properly (cool ideas but too ambitious) and that caused damroll to blow up the monk class hard. When I recoded the class I made it 3 so we didn't need to worry about gatekeeping reasonable achievable damroll numbers with encumberances for monks to be balanced. That definitely didnt work. Builders just ripped them off anyways. I don't remember everything I've done under the hood anymore, but its carefully fair and intentionally easier to understand and compare with other classes. The one thing I would like to do at the moment is put some AC bonus for displaying their tattoos.
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Thorgoth
Immortal


Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 727

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:57 pm    Post subject:

Yeah I never understood why they get kickboxing a/b and martial arts a/b but only got 3 attacks.

Also I was thinking last night that it would be cool to have a chakira gauge that you could build and time accordingly to surprise you opponent with the strike. Basically the speed of build would depend on your anatomy percentage, stance and anatomy knowledge of race you’re fighting.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:00 am    Post subject:

Like a manual chakra strike? They are SO rare as is. But they are strong af.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:09 am    Post subject:

more gauge ideas for monk are definitely welcome. That idea could be available for grandmaster tiger stance or something
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:13 am    Post subject:

What about existing skills that are borderline worthless?

Like I mentioned above, fists of fury basically does nothing as is.
Some tattoo skills are completely overshadowed by others.

Now that I think about it, that's pretty much it though. Not bad honestly. lol
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:42 am    Post subject:

do you have a list?
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:55 am    Post subject:

Well I was surprised to find it's shorter than I thought. I guess my own bias or something.

I don't know all of the tattoo abilities because I haven't rolled a bunch of monks to personally test them all, so I could be mistaken, but they're most of the list and based on a combo of personal experience and just seeing what other monks choose, so grain of salt

rolling water
fists of fury
spear hand strike
bouncy
exploding palm (borderline)


The idea of some of those is great, but the application seems busted or just lackluster somehow, making them not real worthwhile from what I can tell.
I didn't construct the list with this in mind, but I think I could agree that the list is in descending order of worthlessness, meaning that for the most part, top of the list is most useless.
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Thorgoth
Immortal


Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 727

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:53 pm    Post subject:

No, not a manual chakira strike. Essentially the same concept of a berserker fury build. Doing certain actions / fighting builds fury up which would be the same for the chakra strike. It could build faster if you are 100 in the anatomy of the race you are fighting, your type of adrenaline and stance. (snake style is suppose to increase chakra strike chances but I don't see a diff between it and other stances).

It wouldn't necessarily be a "manual trigger", but you could build your gauge up and use it by murdering someone at the opportune moment. A situation I could see if that you're battling a drow shadow for a while, both low health, you gain some distance, drop into snake style and kill some drow mobs in Unlit City to quickly build your chakra gauge up. Shadow comes blazing in thinking you're about to die and you turn around and chakra strike his ass and go for the kill. Essentially it could be a finisher type move. Does that make sense?
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:57 pm    Post subject:

That does make sense. Thanks for explaining. I think the only part I was not understanding was I was envisioning that once you had charged it up you could "bank" it and just keep it in your pocket to unleash when you wanted. With it triggering automatically as soon as you full charge that makes it much less easy to exploit. Cool idea.
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject:

So I've thought of something that could resolve what I've dubbed 'The Leopard Problem' in monks.

'The Leopard Problem', from what I've gathered, is that leopard seems to be the solution to almost every PK situation for a monk (a slight overstatement, but bear with me). It particularly #feelsbad against dual wielders for both parties involved. Monk players don't seem to like the fact that they're kind of nerfing themselves by going into inferior style (even though the benefits outweigh the cost), because it's counter-intuitive to how we're taught to play the game. Likewise, the opposing player doesn't like that they SHOULD be gaining some sort of advantage by dual wielding against the monk. The result is that people have called for leopard nerfs, two-handed stance buffs, etc....

So here's my potential solution (feel free to weigh in): why not swap leopard with snake, making leopard a two-handed style, and snake a defensive style? I think this would work for a number of reasons, and not work for two reasons (which can be easily remedied).

Why it works:

(1) Making leopard a two-handed style makes it, indisputably, the best solution to a dual wielder. The other two-handed styles are currently a bit underwhelming anyways, or at least they are niche counter-picks, so this gives monks a consistent tool that #feelsgood against those dual wielders.

(2) Leopard's crazy ripostes would not shine nearly as well against a shield-bearing opponent, or a counter-balanced rogue. Rogue can sidestep to deal massive damage, and shield-wearers have lots of other tools at their disposal while wearing a shield to bypass leopard defenses (volley, sideswipe, shield slam, reckoning, spells).

(3) This would give the other awesome monk defensive stance (monkey) a chance to shine. From what I've seen, monkey is mainly used to close the deal with monkey clamber. Now, it could be used to overwhelm a two-handed opponent with a flurry of attacks. I don't think monks would gripe at the idea of getting to use monkey more.

(4) Snake as a defensive stance opens up some interesting counters. Most opponents coming in with a two-handed weapon dodge, which snake helps bypass. For those non-dodgey mages wearing staffs, or hybrids using polearms, snake's 'spear-hand strike' could now be executed while maintaining style advantage. Furthermore, it opens up interesting monk vs. monk counters: crane catches snake, leopard tempers tiger, but monkey befuddles leopards defenses. Stuff like that.

Why it doesn't work:

(1) If we're maintaining that two-handed stances have resistances, then leopard kind of steps on panda's toes in that category. Solution? Just apply a flat buff to two-handed stances, like how snake was recently buffed, and take away elemental resistances. We've seen from recent monk players that snake didn't become broken by increasing the hit/dam bonus. Just apply a similar bonus to the other two-handed stances (panda, mantis)

(2) This would leave monks with two yang-defensive stances, with phoenix being the only yin-defensive stance. This could be problematic, but it also may not be impactful at all. I haven't thought about this part enough.

Anyhow, let me know what y'all think. The idea kind of struck me while I was walking the dog, and I wanted to get it down before I forgot lol.
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Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:00 am    Post subject:

Interesting thoughts. I don't play monks, but I do fight them occasionally. I'm not sure if this would or would not be a good fit, yet. But I feel you laid out some decent points there.
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Kornhole



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Posts: 370
Location: Melbourne, Florida

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:30 pm    Post subject:

Monks still get empower (worthless?). Monks second parry in tiger?!?!? Beads don't strangle??!? Monks are not what they were, not do I find them better. Good thing thats just my opinion.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:38 pm    Post subject:

I believe we already shot down the manual fury build for berserkers (though that's not relevant to this thread, other than as an analogy to manual chakkra strike)...

Keep in mind, as of right now, the two-handed stances do give some resistances to the monk to specific melee attacks... Snake gives pierce, poison, and plague resistance (Kaeno told me on Tayina he should have used it more often because I was using the skull-headed mace frequently), panda gives resist all if well-fed (requires cooked food as far as I know, though the stance itself is lackluster), and mantis gives resistance to slash, mental, and holy attacks.

I would assume that leopard would give cold resistance, if this were implemented? I am unsure what else could be used if we consistently give three resistances... Pain or its general damage type comes to mind, or blunt, but that does not seem very thematic.
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:39 pm    Post subject:

@BlackWidow - yeah, when you factor in resistances, it doesn’t work all that well. That’s why I offered that we just do away with resistances in two handed stances, and give mantis and panda a flat hit/dam buff. With leopard as a two-handed stance, you don’t need resistances stacked on top of it anyway.

This also just spreads out the most useful stances across combat types now. Leopard for two-handed, crane for offensive, monkey for defensive. There is of course other options (drunken is a solid offensive, snake could be decent defensive), but these three feel like solid proven stances that have been shown to work well time and time again.
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject:

This kind of brain storming is really helpful, so thanks for sharing thoughts. Even when we don't use one of your ideas directly, they sometimes give us inspiration in other ways. I don't think snake as defensive really makes sense based on the animal or on the kung fu styles it has inspired. I don't think it steals too much of our upcoming patch's thunder to let you know you that snake will be an offensive stance when the q1 patch drops.

I can say that I've been putting more time in on monk updates than anything else for my own contributions this time around. This has included a deep dive into the "math of monk" as well as watching plenty of kung fu movies. One thing that I found in my deep dive was a bug where some of the lesser attacks, like the basic jabs, were dealing a bit more damage than was intended in two-handed and defensive stances. That's one of the main reasons why leopard has been overperforming. The monk updates that I mentioned earlier are balanced based on the monk damage numbers with that bug fixed.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject:

So heres a shower thought for monk, monks get three attacks and four martial arts/kickboxing. If I don't practice martial arts/kickboxing b, does that mean I guarantee the hardest hits?
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