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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 6 hours.

A bit of discussion for engrave specifically.
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Xenyar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:49 pm    Post subject:

A hard NO to being able to buy ore.
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:53 pm    Post subject:

it was 2 typo corrections
BLOODSHED -> BLOODTYPE
relics -> medals

- The new change to BLOODTYPE (see the helpfile, if you don't know) means you can get 150-300 medals from end game content, this would yield enough to make one item for every 2 bosses killed.

5 medals / ore, 50 ores per armor = 250 medals needed. So technically, one item per 1-2 bosses depending on the medal drop.

Agree with Rothak's point. Although I would rather move ores to another more suitable shop (like some dwarven miner in Greginsham) and have some trappers selling furs and tanned hides. Currency can be adapted as needed. Farming 50 pieces of anything for just a chance of a good item doesn't sound like fun at all.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:47 pm    Post subject:

Instead of restricting engrave to specific slots, maybe we should look at just making sure the armor type matches. To engrave a heavy set piece your rare needs to be heavy armor. To engrave jewelry, you need jewelry, etc. I think I would prefer that than just excluding hands/feet/wrist/body because we don't have forge/craft available for them.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:52 pm    Post subject:

Vevier makes some real good points about forging. It is a pretty big grind, and a huge letdown when it goes wrong because of the time sunk. I know you've said in the past that the ore is just a side bonus from gold farming, Dav, but regardless it still feels really bad to have a battered item come out when you do everything right. Forging should be made a little more forgiving I think, and more ways of crafting items would be awesome.

As far as engraving sets goes, it really is pretty OP right now. I don't really like the forging restriction; there's too many downsides outlined by others. A couple ideas:

1. Reduce the number of engraved items that can be in a set. Right now you have to be wearing at least half of the original items. Make it 3/4 or something. Maybe combine that with opening up engraving to non-rares to lessen the sting.

2. Limit the level of the rare you can engrave to be commensurate with the set. Maybe highest set item level +25% or simply disallow level 50 rares. That way you can still let lowbies engrave spiked gauntlets into Treant Thews, but you're not putting end-game rares in there. This also gives high levels a way to quickly get back into somewhat fighting shape after getting full looted without having to rally a Winter crew which is a big part of sets.

EDIT: deleted stuff about imbue; I confused it with augment.


Last edited by Xerties on Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:40 pm    Post subject:

More ways to craft (skinning, etc.) and better outcomes (i.e. more forgiving) when you get your hammer strokes right.

I agree with these suggestions.

I know fuck all about the newer aspects of making rares into gambled rares. Like, literally fuck all. Been too long since I played for more than a few hours over a couple weeks, so I have zero opinion on the rest of the argument. But I do know that forging armor was neat when it came out and then I used it precisely zero times in years, because of the total pain in the ass it was to accomplish.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject:

I haven't used imbue in a couple weeks so correct me if I'm wrong, but are you mistaking imbue for augment, Xerties?

Because we also have augment, which was nerfed with a fade chance recently.

Honestly it's the combination of all of these things that makes things crazy. And the most OP is already using forge, so making it only forge only slows down the problem it does not eliminate it. Forged gear is hands down uncontested the best gear in the game. You can literally get 4 damroll with NO PENALTY. Fucking nuts. Then you engrave it in to your set and it's even better by association. Then you augment it with +10 hp or +1 dex or whatever you want.

Augment has been nerfed to being useless (in my limited recent experience, because things just insta faded and my +3 damroll item became 0 everything)
Imbue is still repeatable limitlessly. *as of several weeks ago
And making only forged gear, which is the best gear in the entire game, engravable does NOT make engrave less OP, it just makes it slower. Well people are gonna do it anyways, or find ways to speed it up (which you already gave them by selling ore)

I mean yeah forging is slow as hell and annoying to get ore like everyone is saying, I'll agree. But the payout is INSANE. It's better than most summonable mob drops too. And you can script it apparently, I don't know jack shit about scripting but yeah, I guess just afk do it at 3am risk free. That's annoying.
The chance of it being battered is there, but I just do it by hand manually and I get 'superior' probably 5/7 times. Only got beautiful once, but that shit is insane, 4 damroll with no penalty. Even battered is still better AC than any gambled item and the same stats, so it's still better than just gambling.

What my crazy long winded post is getting at here is that restricting engrave to forge items does NOT MAKE SETS LESS OP. It just makes SOME sets less OP. If you're gonna fix something do it right, don't just fix some of them and leave the rest broken.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:01 pm    Post subject:

Xerties level idea would work. I like it better than just matching armor types. We already have something in place for mitigating OP armor class, specifically, although that has advantages. Xerties suggestion, on the other hand, directly addresses the real problem head on. Outright blocking level 50 engraves would be a good starting point for remedying the situation. I would say then just generalize that solution and block engraving any rare with a lower level item. That way it should be balanced across all levels instead of just level 50. We will see an upshot in trade for useless-looking lowbie items which can get a new lease of life if they work in a set, which is what sets was always meant to be about anyway. Then forging can just provide an alternative way to create lowbie items for engraving with sets, instead of being a requirement, or allowing supergear to be even stronger also. That addresses the Keepers and social aspect. It seems so obvious now. Very good suggestion Xerties!
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject:

I'd advocate for adding some wiggle room for the level differences. For example, living wood is level 20, but spiked garde armor is level 30. I think it's fine to engrave spiked garde into treant thews though. That's not really a problem. And if you're too strict with the level difference then you'll just end up making the really low level sets, like Champ Glory, effectively unengravable. That might not be a problem, but it is something to consider.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Having wiggle seems ok to me.. question is how to apply one sensibly though. Maybe 10 levels would work but seems a bit abritrary.

What we could probably do is something to balance the risk-reward:

- roll a 50% percent chance to succeed engrave
- if you succeed great. if not, 25% chance (on a separate roll) to ruin the item (i.e. you get literally a broken item that you have to sac, like a bad enchant armor)
-add a 1% chance per level diff to each percent, so you'd have a 40% chance to engrave spiked garde with treant thews that way, with 35% chance to ruin the item, which is a risk but the odds are not stacked that high against you. Then the winter items (30 level diff) would be only 20% chance to work, and 55% chance to blow it up, which is going to shake out weak hands.
-- could include a dwarf perk for 10% to success chance of engraving since it is a grimforge legacy thing

I'm still not a huge fan of high lvl engraved items but if its like raising Rin I guess I'm in
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:54 am    Post subject:

Oh, I like the %chance for success. Better than just saying "No!" to engraving. I'd suggest looking at item level spreads, then tuning it such that there's a 5% success floor and a 95% chance ceiling. So, for example, if you try to engrave the Ancient Banner into Champ Glory you should only get it once out of 20 attempts. But if you try to engrave that same banner into the Limelight, you'll get it 19 out of 20 times. It'd probably take some better tuning than that, but you get the idea.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:34 am    Post subject:

Idk what is within the realm of possibility coding wise or not. But would there be a way to have number of engraved items affect chance of success, if we go with this % based idea?

So for example, you have a full set and are going to engrave your very first item into, so it will be full set -1. Your success chance is pretty high. But then you go to engrave item number 2, lower chance. And so on. So engraving more and more items becomes more and more risky as you get further from the original set. You can still cap it at half or whatever, like you were going to. But this makes it a bit easier to engrave the set but still less likely to turn it into a completely OP hodge-podge of winter gear.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:59 am    Post subject:

to get to 1 in 20 for easy scenarios I would just slash the base chance for ruining the item to 10%. That means you can expect to try up to 20 times without losing the item. Then we could just double the level penalty for ruining so your thews/winter eq engrave is probably going to look like 20% chance of success followed by 70% chance to blow it up. not exactly 95 but still pretty bad and I wouldnt really want to try it. How do we feel about that
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject:

For people just having trouble forging..

First of all, the furnace sign says you just count ten puffs of the furnace. I think most people can manage counting to ten. That is an idiot test. You can do it.

Second is the elaborate hammer/tongs, The sign says you need to perform the action about every 5 seconds. so, I tried that. I watched my computer clock and hit the actions every 5 seconds on the dot and it worked perfectly. After that, I got lazy and just alternated hammer + 2 saves and it went perfectly that way also. I also alternated hammer + casting armor spell and that also worked. That runs a tad faster than saving 2x.

Example:
Code:

hammer anvil|save|save|hammer anvil|save|save|grip anvil|save|save|grip anvil|save|save|grip anvil|save|save|grip anvil|save|save|grip anvil|save|save|grip anvil


Theres nothing at risk on these steps..you just have to use the right anvil combo.
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Vevier
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:29 pm    Post subject:

But was it fun? Did you enjoy doing it right then getting a cracked price?

YOUR ability to do something difficult in this game is a bad litmus test for how hard it is for the average player.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:30 pm    Post subject:

lol if you can't count to 5 in your head then hit a key to initiate your hammer/grip and then count to 5 again. You are dumber than balls.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:08 pm    Post subject:

This might be getting off topic a bit, but I don't think the argument is that forging is too technically difficult. Rather, it's that even if you do everything perfect, there's still a fairly good chance (seems to be around 10-20%) that your armor will come out battered. Gathering ore is very grindy, about 10 minutes per round, what with avoiding the Magician, pushing through granite golems, and waiting for repop. So if you were forging with 15 ores (sweet spot IMO) that represents around two hours of grind. Then it fails when you did everything right? feelsbad.jpg. Let alone trying with 50 ores...

Now, I'm sure someone will bring up gambling by comparison. "Well, if you gamble from the Unlucky Smuggler you get what you want way less than 90% of the time!" That's true, but there's other things at play there. First, it's understood that you're gambling. You expect randomness. And even when you don't get what you're looking for exactly, most of the stuff you get is still usable, or maybe you could sell to someone else. Also you can mitigate your losses by bringing stuff to sell back to the vendor. You can't do that with forging. Also the forging mechanic implies skill and interactivity. When it goes wrong but you did everything spot on, it just feels really bad.

How do we mitigate that? I get that maybe you don't want to guarantee people epic endgame equipment from afk scripting the mines. But as it stands basically nobody does it because it's not fun or rewarding (we are playing a game right?). Perhaps we could add a recycle mechanic to take some of the sting out. You get your gem back when you melt down your armor already. Maybe instead you get an ingot worth half of the ore that went into the armor in the first place. Then if something goes wrong at least it's not a total loss. Just an idea.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:52 pm    Post subject:

Cracked, battered, reinforced, who cares playa. Its all about gilded. God damn. Can I can stomach getting a piece of battered forged eq. I dunno I never id'd it. I'm grinding ore for FOUR DAMROLL ITEMS PLAYA. I dont care about time. I dont care about getting your winter frequent flyer medals either
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Vevier
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:09 pm    Post subject:

That makes you the only one.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:37 pm    Post subject:

lol Dav's losin' it.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 am    Post subject:

So anyway, here are my notes for engrave so far.

1. Engrave has the chance of fail/ruin as described.
2. Uniques should not be engraveable. (Resatimm said so)
3. Uniques should also not be droppable from set by equipping religion floaters.
4. Engrave should not directly apply antievil/antigood etc - this is creating unuseable rares across alignments, hurting pvp - equipping should instead check the original set item flags.
5. A risk-free way to unengrave rares to account for 4. e.g. add "reforge" command to the engrave anvil
6. Update forge repops

Salvage sounds good Xerties. I think you would just need to receive a shittier ingot if you had melted a shittier item
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