Forum Links 

Click to return to main page
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile  Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 
 Current Top Rated Killers 
 Next Event   Voting Links 


The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 3 hours.

A bit of discussion for engrave specifically.
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Abandoned Realms Forum Index -> Past Balance Patch Thread Discussions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:07 am    Post subject:

Where was a chance of ruin for engrave described? Are you saying that you could spend your gold and end up trashing the item instead of engraving it??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
 
0 0 0
Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:42 am    Post subject:

page 2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
0 0 0
Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:16 am    Post subject:

Code:
dav said:

- roll a 50% percent chance to succeed engrave
- if you succeed great. if not, 25% chance (on a separate roll) to ruin the item (i.e. you get literally a broken item that you have to sac, like a bad enchant armor)
-add a 1% chance per level diff to each percent, so you'd have a 40% chance to engrave spiked garde with treant thews that way, with 35% chance to ruin the item, which is a risk but the odds are not stacked that high against you. Then the winter items (30 level diff) would be only 20% chance to work, and 55% chance to blow it up, which is going to shake out weak hands.
-- could include a dwarf perk for 10% to success chance of engraving since it is a grimforge legacy thing


This still sounds like a pretty shitty experience to me. You lose both your gold and your item, f that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
 
0 0 0
hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:35 am    Post subject:

Honestly I'm kind of a huge coward and so I just don't do most things if they have a chance to fail. For example the enchant armor option that is in the Seringale forge. Pay 100 medals to enchant metal armor. Cool thing that was introduced. I've done it a total of 2 times and both times my item exploded. Fuck that, never doing it again. Whoever spent time coding it, sorry but no one cares and no one uses it.

If you add a chance for your hard earned shit to just become worthless, like the new augment change where it fades to shit, then it just becomes worthless to do. Add 1 dex to your gambled armor, at the risk of it becoming absolutely worthless garbage? I'll just keep it the way it is thanks.

Might as well just remove the feature entirely if it's just gonna ruin your stuff.

Maybe others disagree. Idk. I mean I still think that it could use balancing. I just wish there were a better option than that. Maybe there is one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
1 0 1
Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:59 am    Post subject:

I agree 100% Ham, its an anti-fun mechanic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
 
0 0 0
Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject:

Well we need to do something to balance sets. The other option was just to ban engraving level 50 rares. This way you can at least give it a shot if you want.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject:

Blocking it from being engraved is a lot easier to code and I'm still perfectly OK with it. The goal here for me is just to fix the engrave cheesing. It doesnt have to be auto-explode. It can just be a chance to apply some "rotdeath" curse of grimforge black magician or whatever we called him
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
0 0 0
Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:25 am    Post subject:

The reason why we added fade chance to augment is because you could just spam augment until you added a stat point or 10hp to literally every slot with armor in it. There was no drawback to it, at all, and barely any cost except the mild effort of getting past a couple of mobs to get to the forge. If you didn't get what you liked, you just filled up a bag of garbage to shard and spammed augment till you got what you were looking for because you could infinitely overwrite the augment and nothing bad Ever Happened. On top of all the other enhancements you can already do to armor (engrave, imbue, enchant) it was insanely cheesy. I don’t buy the “a chance of fail will make me never use it” argument. It follows the chance of invoker enchants. People have always used enchant armor/weapon knowing there is a chance for a great benefit and also a chance to fail and lose the item. Maybe you just won’t attempt it on your uber endgame unique or +4 whatever gamble. Lesser rare or something less precious? Go for it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
1 0 0
Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject:

Tbh i don't understand why augment was even added in the first place except to allow a small number of people in the know to boost their eq.

Also weapons and armor enchants aren't 50% or your coin is gone, then another 30-50% chance the item goes with it. This is draconian for little cause and is going to result in severe dissatisfaction.

Why don't we see what just blocking unique does before we get this heavy handed and make yet another gearing option totally unfun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
 
0 0 0
Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject:

Justice helm shouldn't be able to be engraved. It's literally the best piece of armor in the game.. beyond unique status. But Justice can create them on a whim. Engraving those is cheese.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
1 0 0
Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:42 pm    Post subject:

Agreed Xenyar, and it has been noted on our things-to-address list. Vevier, my comment was purely in regard to augment as we are already discussing changes to engrave. I don't know the reasoning for adding augment but I was definitely surprised at how it was working and went for reducing the cheese.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:17 pm    Post subject:

I guess it makes sense for augment, but I don't really care about that nerf, I wasn't using it anyway and like ham, I'm not going to risk my items for a random small bonus. Thats so not worth it to me.

If don't want to see engrave go the same way though, because that's a key factor in many people's regearing strategy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
 
0 0 0
Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject:

When the risk outweighs the possible rewards these cool features become essentially a waste of time and effort. It is my opinion that no one will be using them. You work hard to get that shiny piece of gear and want to improve it slightly, but you have a 50% or better chance to make it useless/blow it up/etc. Just not worth that slight advantage you get.


When set bonuses were implemented they added a cool new feature to the game. Somewhat levelled the playing field for people not able to get those shiny rares/uniques. Most of the set bonuses however dont make up for the downsides given by the shit pieces you have to wear to make it happen.

Engrave takes away some of the downside by allowing you to get these cool(mostly underwhelming) set bonuses by substituting shit pieces for good pieces and the cost of your piggy bank. Cool. However, recently people have been able to get huge advantages stacking set bonuses etc. Simple fix here would be to restrict a character to one set.

Augmenting was implemented to offset some of the penalties given by gambled equipment. A cool and useful thing and completely makes sense. Gambled equipment is a good alternative to rare/unique equipment and would be as good as rare/uniques without the downside. Augment makes them roughly even. It is a bit too easy to abuse, and can admit ive abused it myself. Having a high chance to make gear useless just means no one will use this feature. A few ideas I have would be to make augments require shards from level equivalent gear(probably a nightmare to code) or perhaps flip the script and make augments only useable on non armor giving pieces.

I never bothered with forging because you're spending an hour+ of your life to have a chance to get nothing. The gear you can get is very good, but im not spending five hours because I can't figure it out to get a piece. The salvage idea might take some of the sting out of it.

Imbuing seems like it can produce good items, but I haven't played around with it enough to be able to speak about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject:

I brought up augment because it was a recent change that exemplified the point I was trying to get across. It was something I used frequently and now will never use. I also said that I'm a coward about it so I can definitely agree that there are probably other players who will still use it, like you said Vanisse. But I don't know that I'll find it worth it. On the other hand, I do forge, even though it seems like other people find it not worth it. Different personalities I guess. I will say that augment was CHEESE as all hell though. I hope I didn't say that the change was unnecessary or that I hated it. I mean I know I didn't directly, but maybe that's how it came across. But you're right, it was way way too easy to augment the hell out of all your gear and end up with massive bonuses. I abused it because I didn't want to be the only one who wasn't abusing it. Bad mentality to have? Maybe. Idk.
But now I'm way off thread topic. sorry.


Honestly most of my characters don't use sets beyond the middle ranks, so idk. Maybe I'm the one who's missing out on the better set up lol. But I do have to admit that engrave has become very integral to most everyone's gear situation. it also provides a bonus that is much different/better than augment. So even with a chance to fail it will likely be used, just because it's worth it. But will adding fail chance change anything absolutely? There will still be people with absolutely cheese broken OP sets of gear, right? They'll just be more rare. Only the people with extensive time/friends/luck will have them. It will make the "gear gap" - if you will - even larger. Some lucky shit will end up with that same set, after a bunch of tries (or hell, maybe only one) and now he's the only one with it and no one can stop him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
1 0 0
BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject:

Not to detail the topic, but to comment on something Dav said on the first two pages about forging armour in Grimforge... The timing is not hard to do if you know how. What I tend to do with each stroke is say under my breath "a-one! (this is the length of a full breath) Two, three, four" *hammer or grip* and I've never had issues. Alternatively, and this is probably easier than using the Windows Clock because you don't have to keep clicking on it after each stroke, you can always time the strokes by using a wristwatch.

Regarding engrave failure, some of my characters have made extensive use of engraving whereas others barely used it. For some sets this chance is a big deal, and others, not so much. Titanium Tenor is one set which would barely be affected by any changes because all that can be engraved are two bracers... Ditto Arcane Gemstones I suppose. Heart of Eternity on the other hand is a set where all the pieces (well, the floating and earring do not really qualify...) can be engraved, and at middling levels this may be important to some people. Platinum Might is also easy to replace... You get the point I'm sure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject:

The augment change was a good one. Vanisse is right, you could just spam augment and get godly armor for no effort or risk. Having the fade chance now makes it so you're not bumping up already powerful endgame rares, but it's still attractive to juice up a mid-level set that you can easily replace if it fades.

Vev makes a good point too. Let's just limit uniques and level 50 rares to start and see how that plays out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
1 0 0
Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject:

Let me just clarify this about engrave. There will need to be a fix implemented for the *GAME BUG* I detailed in the first post in this thread. The thread was just an opportunity to discuss that, but a whole can of worms has opened up.. this is because engrave is crawling with maggots. It is completey unnecessary (and cheese) to be engraving cabal banners, Justice helms, dropping key items like Angelic from the sets with religious floater, and so on.

Fine amber sleeves and overlapping plates of black armor are not level 50 rares, just for a start, and I don't feel much trust or confidence in anybody at the moment to not just go around lowering the levels of eq so they can still engrave it. We need to fix this properly.. no half-measures.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
0 0 0
Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:41 pm    Post subject:

I'm confused. Your post didn't explain a bug. Rather, you pointed out a weakness in the engraving system that allows for overpowered equipment loadouts. This whole thread has been addressing that more or less, with a few detours into forging, augmenting, and imbuing.

I agree that there are lots of issues with engraving. Your point about overlapping plates is well made, which is why I suggested the level delta calc instead of just saying 'no winter rares.' There are downsides to that approach though, as others have mentioned. But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. We can expand required items for sets too if we identify specific sets that need it. We can also keep brainstorming ideas; we don't have to implement something just because the thread is a few days old.

If the IMM staff can't be trusted not to alter equipment to benefit their mortals, that speaks to a larger problem that way outshines simple engrave exploits. Trying to point to that as a reason not to implement a simpler fix is sort of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
1 0 0
Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:12 pm    Post subject:

So the rule of thumb I follow for bugs is pretty much "If it seems too good to be true, it is."

Examples of engrave bugs:
- 100 AC / 5 damroll from literally equipping only the steel belt from goblin village and the mountain boogum's boots with top rares.
- Pulling a Wings of Avangelun permafly elf mage without having angelic equipped, or a Visage of Pain without the mace of ironheaded maiden weapon
- stacking torments of hell and titanium tenor with champions glory via a religion floater (I found a way to stack 3 sets which I wont be giving)

The bug I am after is bug #1. We can call it a cheese, weakness, flaw, exploit, defect, or whatever you want. I am not one for sugar coating things.

As for the imms part. Some bad things happen not because of people having bad intentions, but because they did not think it through properly. Thats been the case with engrave. We just need something that prevents anybody else fucking it up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
1 0 0
Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:49 pm    Post subject:

I understand your point, but I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think it's 'sugarcoating' to have specific words for specific scenarios. We can discuss semantics another time though.

I think your issues are addressable without too much difficulty.

Item 2 is the easiest. Make those items required for the set, i.e. unengraveable. Just like the smelly furs with Malicious Beast. The helpfile even says there are some items that are too important for the set to engrave, so little chance of confusion there.

Item 1 is also fairly easy I think. Seems like there was a pretty strong reaction against the chance to fade/explode armor from enchanting, so we can drop that. So let's just cap the level difference for the item to something reasonable. And/or we could reduce the number of engraved items from half to a third or so.

Item 3 is harder to brainstorm, not knowing the specifics of what you're seeing. I reckon it'd be addressed by whatever we end up with for item 1 though.

Again, these are just my ideas. If someone else has others, please contribute to the discussion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Abandoned Realms Forum Index -> Past Balance Patch Thread Discussions All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group