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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 16 hours.

Haste & related skills

 
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:23 pm    Post subject: Haste & related skills

Per Dav's suggestion, I thought I would open up a thread here to discuss possible changes to Haste and other related skills. Specifically Avenging Angel.

I general, I like the concept of making hasted attacks harder to defend, rather than just doubling the attacks per round. That prevents unlucky rounds from just smashing the target. E.g. you're up against a duel wielding warrior and they manage to proc..16 attacks(4 x 2 x 2)? That can't be right. I'm not 100% sure how that works. Maybe it's more like 10, whatever. They proc all those and you have bad luck and manage to only defend a quarter of them you're going to have a bad time. I'll grant that that's an edge case though.

All that being said, I'm not 100% sure this is actually a problem. Or at least not one that warrants the huge nerf to illus that this would be. Given the player base being what it is, there's not a lot of fighters getting hasted by illus and wrecking house. It may be the case that we want to deal with this before it becomes an issue though, and we get more logboard whinging.

On the related subject of Avenging Angel, from an RP standpoint I think it makes sense for it not to work against Neutrals.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Avenging angel has rp restrictions, Rhoa has just abused it to use it as a finisher like harm. The helpfile is pretty clear when you can use it.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:10 pm    Post subject:

Theres already too many factors to manage with parry. I think haste is fine as is. Rhoa is a fringe case with best in slot gear. Get a lynch mob together and do what must be done.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:35 pm    Post subject:

Before you respond to this you should see what raised the issue properly. https://abandonedrealms.com/logs/view_log.php?id=1330#17357

haste wrote:

You yell 'Help! I am being attacked by Rhoa!'
Rhoa's charge MASSACRES you!
Rhoa's charge MASSACRES you!
Rhoa's thrust MASSACRES you!
Rhoa's charge MASSACRES you!
No way! You are still fighting!
Rhoa braces against her armor to perform a two-handed set parry.
Rhoa awkwardly parries your arrow to the ground.
Rhoa braces against her armor to perform a two-handed set parry.
Rhoa awkwardly parries your arrow to the ground.
Rhoa's thrust *** DEMOLISHES *** you!
Rhoa's slash DISMEMBERS you!
Rhoa's slash MASSACRES you!
You couldn't escape!
You have been KILLED!!


Moreover, here is haste on an illusionist incase you forgot.
https://abandonedrealms.com/logs/view_log.php?id=1319

haste wrote:

Chayvudd yells 'Help! I am being attacked by Kali!'
Chayvudd parries your smash.
Chayvudd awkwardly parries your smash with a loud clang.
Chayvudd parries your smash.
Chayvudd has some small wounds and bruises.


This is an illusionist pulling off 3 attacks, every single round. Every. Single. Round. Let that sink in. You can get an "unlucky" murder and attack six times with an illusionist. That can easily be made to 600 damage from an illusionist who stack damroll/whip. And then we put dupes on top, cuz why not.

There might be too many factors in parry, but that's completely moot because haste is way better than everything. A hasted warrior will overwhelm your character thunderously. Its double damage. The upshot of this skill is it quickly puts an opposing character out if its misery so at least you aren't suffering for long.

If I was trying to give a class a skill that would ensure that a guy can beat his opponent with the least brain power possible, it'd definitely give them haste. It broke the game when I put a 1% haste on garb of assassin, it broke ninjas when I put it on shadow machine, it broke berserkers when I put it on mania. Everything haste touches, it leads to the exact same behavior. Get the haste, whatever that takes, then immediately rush into the room and gib your opponent.

Here is why a haste lowering your defenses is a better solution. It makes sense because you are moving faster than the opponent. Therefore, you beat him to the punch. That allows us to have situations that could stay unaffected by haste, like, your dodge if you are counterbalanced (fast reflexes) or if you shield walled, or monkey styled , or warlord eagles take flight (combat style advantage) or loads of other ideas we could do to counter attack. You get some ways to mitigate that. And, like Xerties said, its not the case that you get gibbed by six attacks. We could take some of the offense out of haste in return for a small defensive buff for the person with it. Its a simple, easy solution that we could do RIGHT NOW and it would immediately improve the game balance drasticaly.

If we do nothing about haste now, its just a matter of time before a Knight paladin smashes a neutral player in seconds again. And then we will be back to talking about it. More drama, more deflecting, more criticism of each other, and as a "bonus" more people quitting the mud. There's no getting away from it.
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Kornhole



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Posts: 370
Location: Melbourne, Florida

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject:

I am not trying to be a dick, but........is haste called broken because someone had lucky timing with it on? If I keep logs of every time that double round shit hit me......and every person who got lucky with it must have had a broken skill.........damn we would have no classes left!
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:09 pm    Post subject:

I agree with Kornhole. I don't have anything strictly against changing haste if everyone thinks its a good idea and whatever, I'm not gonna be a dick and just oppose on principle or anything lol. But I don't think it needs to happen. :shrug:

The double round thing isn't even that rare, I was surprised there were so many people who didn't immediately recognize it, in fact.

I do however think that there is something to be said of removing the defensive buffs from avenging angel. But I don't want to set Dav off by bringing it up again. (Oh, oops, I guess I brought it up again)
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:36 pm    Post subject:

Player and mob haste behave completely differently. Anyway I dont feel like nerfing it, people have fun levelling with it. I am just pointing out what you all know already to help write your own proper response. Currently assessing whether that was worth the time. Melee classes which dont need 5 weapons and a shield have a lot of built in convenience and easier re-equip which makes hasted ass kickings seem fine. I just feel bad for the guy who rolls the elf warrior and goes dual wield blades trying to do silver leaves because that would get annihilated by any hasted warrior wearing anything at all (possibly even with hand to hand). I think itd be an improvement if some circumstances in PVP a least take the edge off it, e.g. hasted zerker vs mania zerker = same damage.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject:

yeah but thats not the issue here, you keep conflating haste with the paladin haste, the issue isn't that haste is op, its that you gave an op class haste, I said this in the chat, Haste isn't the issue, Like, why compare elf warrior vs hasted warrior, that wont happen in a 1v1, that is not possible, you are comparing group fights to not group fights, apples to oranges. 2v2 fights, a 1+illusionist vs any 2, does not just automatically mean a win. Haste is not the issue, it is the elf paladin in tenor giving himself haste that is the issue
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:52 am    Post subject:

The tick haste on pally is a player requested feature.

What I contributed to paladins was the requirement of roleplay reason to use those badass skills. I gave them a helpfile that basically says "you cannot use this except on the most supremely wicked evils" (seriously, read the avenging angel helpfile). If the paladin misuses it, it is up to the gods of Light to oathbreak that guy and literally converts that character into dark-knight. With great power comes great responsibility.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:01 am    Post subject:

Maybe I'm alone in having this opinion, maybe not. But I am going to say that it is just my opinion, I'm not pointing fingers or demanding anything, just sharing it.

I dislike the idea that there are skills that exist that are acknowledged to be OP, but allowed to exist because "you have to RP them." They only get to use their OP skills in 'niche' instances, supposedly. It just seems like a situation that is rife for abuse and is going to perpetually lead to people being upset about it.

Are there plans to add more skills that like? Why don't other classes have OP skills that they can only use under heavy RP enforcement?


Also, to go more directly into the thread's topic. I recognize that avenging angel has certain attributes to 'balance' it. It has a long ass cooldown, its duration is really short, mana cost is relatively steep, it has RP requirements, yada yada, etc. whatever. But I still think that it has no place being both an offensive and a defensive buff.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:31 am    Post subject:

You mean like.. cabal powers? Which anyone can join and get. You have to defend your cabal (sometmes also known as "power quitting before the opponents can reach the entrance")
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:37 am    Post subject:

[quote]You mean like.. cabal powers?[/quote]

Fair enough. I suppose that is similar
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:39 am    Post subject:

Well, I mainly play the evil, wouldn't call myself badass, but definitely play the villain, so this is like an ability you used solely for killing me and like a cpl other people. whats our defense for this? Do I get a OP haste to kill him? whats the scissors to his paper if im the rock
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:42 am    Post subject:

also, I know nothing about the new paladin changes at all, I havent played for a while, hardanal and groushtar were like my first characters back in a long time and had no voice in the changes
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:59 am    Post subject:

You arent the rock. Youre the scissors who is going on rampage, cutting through all the wimps in pk range (paper). The paladin is the rock. The rock is defeated by paper because he isnt allowed to pk them.
if you smelllllllllll what rhoa is cookin'
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:16 am    Post subject:

wow, some fucking balance
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:40 am    Post subject:

Well the answer was bash. derp
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