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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 12 hours.

Tiered player killing
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:43 am    Post subject: Tiered player killing

OK, how about something like: Pick player killer tier at birth.

I was thinking 2 tiers. Also I'm just making these options up on spur of moment, I'm sure some are dumb.

* Introductory
- Can only join cabals at a "student" tier, and it's a place where full members should be showing them the ropes of PK/all of AR. Formalise the student/mentor relationship, remove the "cabal is for elites only" tag from everywhere.

- Can only loot 2 items, and have 2 items looted

- Gets a longer ghost period, enough to let stuff reappear in pit, or to find their corpse in safety

- Can't hold ?? unique items ?? lvl 50 rares?? some certain number of rares/uniques? any rares?

- no ratings, no records, etc...

* Hardcore
- all the full looting, naked ghost killing, holy gangbanging fun we have today, that most of us love


Any tier vs Introductory PK:
- requires a "warning" to be issued - think deathmark if that's still a thing. like "I'm coming for you soon". However, code that PK is prevented until warning accepted, or ?5? minutes goes past. Give the person some warning that shit is about to go DOWN!


------------

Some of you will hate this. But ask yourself if you think it would "make more people enjoy themselves, and give players a supportive pathway to become Hardcore"
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:49 am    Post subject:

You could upgrade a char from introductory to hardcore, so you could progress in the Cabal and join the fun of E-I-E-I-O-Tenor
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:56 am    Post subject:

Wrap the "thieves annoy me" stuff into this ranking. Can only steal 2 pieces from any introductory player per ?real time day?week? idk...
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject:

Curious to see what others say. I'm still mulling it over myself. But I want to say right off the bat: you cannot upgrade from introductory to hardcore. If you pick introductory you are stuck there forever.
Choosing it early and getting an ezpz run to 50 and then hardcoring to turn the tables is too exploitable. You are locked in to whatever you pick at creation.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject:

Let me correct the post for you

- all the full looting, naked ghost killing, holy gangbanging fun we have today, that most of us love, gone

because your idea will kill AR

in fact this idea is so devastating to AR that if that ever got implemented I would just pack it in and start a new mud with full looting. That's literally how I feel. Reading that was totally depressing, stephen2. Why would you pitch a dangerous idea that alienates the damn playerbase? This is a "full looting" game. Meaning freedom to loot up to and including everything you want. That doesnt mean you have to full loot everybody. It just means that you can. You're completely missing the point of playing here. That point being its YOUR CHOICE. if you just want to restrict your looting to two items then go right ahead and do that and change the culture, be the change you wish to see.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject:

Thoughtless answer with no detailed explanation Dav. Your only argument is: "a dangerous idea that alienates the damn playerbase"

I see 1 response saying they'd mull it over. I don't see an alienated playerbase? where are they?

You give no arguments, except a fake one. Try again.

--------------------

My hypothesis:
* It allows more people to enjoy AR
* It formalises a "mentoring" path for newer players
* The invaluable and interesting newbies that Kalist got through via hard work on Reddit would have a way to stay, a path for them, that would increase engagement for us all

As it is, I believe, people come, see how important PK is to AR, see the huge learning curve between themselves and most other players and don't come back. There's no pathway, and there's a lot of ways people can shit on them.

--------------------

Look forward to hearing your actual explanation as to why it's a devastating idea, in detail please.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject:

Hello kitty island here we come....
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Kalist19
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject:

Dav did you misread his post somehow? With his idea all that stuff wouldn’t be gone, you just wouldn’t be able to do it on newbies. Also please remember that talking about AR does not mean implementing changes immediately into AR. I can’t do that. Xerties can’t do that. Stephen can’t do that. Ham can’t do that. Only you have the power to implement a casual thought immediately. People like to talk about AR because they are passionate about it. Please see that as a complement - not a personal attack on you. Just remember, nobody is calling your baby ugly.

I don’t think the hard coded looting restrictions are worth talking about because it will never happen (and that’s the one point out of the few stephen made that dav had the biggest issue with - I think). I don’t think it’s necessary either, I think people could just think more about how often they full loot. If you play AR because you love the thrill of typing “g all corpse” that’s cool too. Just maybe don’t do it on noobs?

What about the other ideas though? I think the “trainee” cabal thing is a cool idea. Cabals are great for RP and I would imagine a newbie could learn a lot from players like Rhoa, Dogran, Solmundi, Thoom, etc.

Likewise it would be cool to really help those newbies get reoriented after death. What if they wake up in the temple as a ghost with a yellow road to their corpse? It seems reasonable to let them still be a ghost for a bit beyond their items returning. Note that this applies to newbies - if you want to pk a naked Dogran by the pit, go for it.



What if instead of character specific, the NEW tag applied to all characters associated with a player account? NEW tags should last indefinitely too until an imm turns them off on a character manually. Just because you’re 50 doesn’t mean you are suddenly competent. Maybe after the account is a few years old the automatic NEW tag goes away upon character creation.

This allows for more self-policing from the community and more harsh responses from imms for people shitting on newbies. “I know you could see the NEW tag, yet you betrayed him and full looted him. Don’t be a dick to newbies.” Personally I don’t full loot and I like to talk to people to try to figure out if they are new and what their goals are before attacking them. That’s decreased the number of people I attack drastically but it’s good for RP and it probably helps keep people engaged (vs just getting steamrolled by a geared retired elite).

Edit - someone just told me about the mentor thing. That’s neat.


Last edited by Kalist19 on Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:09 pm    Post subject:

You fundamentally change the game by impacting the pk and looting system. Thats fine, if you want to play a different game. I'd be for offering protection to newbies via the new flag. But any player granted such protection shouldn't be allowed in a cabal, they should be steered to coteries. Maybe expand on coteries to have one that trains people. Also what is to stop the newbie from being a disrespectful little terror hiding behind protection so they cant be put in their place? Also, any newbie protection system you set up will of course be exploited by vets.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject:

I didn't write a long detailed post because it doesnt need a long detailed post to just state its a rug pull.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:47 pm    Post subject:

I wouldn't play an AR that had the changes as suggested. It would take my fun away, because I want to go kill the big bad, or choose to be the big bad, or whatever. I don't want a required timer to allow you to quit out on me. I don't want to not punish you for having rares I need when you aren't going to competitively pk and thus shouldn't have them etc.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:08 pm    Post subject:

^ this

Also, every time you guys throw "newbies" into a debate, you're arguing with emotions instead of real reasoning. Imagine if you had hired a babysitter (really, its not that hard to imagine, its pretty much what the imms do here), and you treated him/her disrespectfully all the time, paid him/her beans, and on top of that your kids (so-called "reddit recruits") act entitled and bratty. Well what's going to happen is that babysitter quits. Then your response - "But what about the newbies?" That's not going to stop the door slamming is it? This example illustrates that this is an extremely weak way to make a case, for any proposal. Plus, every time you guys direct things into a newbies thing it leads to an ENDING of all rational debate because it displaces it with moral panic. Its emotional blackmail and it needs to stop.

Stephen2, look at the other thread - I put it all very clearly there for you. This is just a duplicate thread with the same idea that's been rejected already. I wrote in the other thread that it was clear from the overall them of the posts that the REAL ISSUE was that end game re-equipping had been made deliberately tedious and frustrating. We put in place some extra measures to address that, literally on the patch that was released last Friday. So this does not need re-posting especially this soon after it was rejected. But let me make it very clear for you what is fundamentally wrong with your suggestion. It adds too much grief and subtracts too much pleasure. The game's balance of risk vs reward is weighed upon optional full loots.
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Bladefury

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Joined: 11 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:10 am    Post subject:

I read 5 minutes of this and was disgusted. How long have you been playing AR Stephen? I've been here for 15 plus years. This is my home and frankly I don't like the way you are taking a fucking shit on my couch. So please kindly 🙏 fuck off with that idea.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:07 am    Post subject:

Dav, I agree with you that there are certain aspects of AR that are fundamental to the experience. However, I disagree with your assertion that being concerned about newbs is an argument from emotion or somehow misplaced. We absolutely should be thinking about the experience of the game as it relates to new players.

We need to face the hard fact that this game, which so many of us have played and loved for literal decades, is on life support. Player counts have plummeted in the last several years. If we want it to survive, we need to be thinking of ways to make the game more attractive to new players. That means examining pain points with an open mind, not shitting on people for trying to come up with brainstorming ideas to make the game more palatable to newbs.

Stephen's suggestion (and it should be stressed that this is a suggestion, not demand or anything like that) has merit. This game has an incredible learning curve. It takes players years to become even just competent. Which is exacerbated by the moratorium on OOC interaction. I'm not saying that's wrong or should be changed, but just think of another game you've tried to introduce to a friend and then had to say, "Oh yeah, by the way, I can't voice/text/video chat with you at all while you're learning to play, or even know who you're playing. Good luck!"

The student/mentor relationship is a great idea. Trouble is, we don't really have the player count to support it. It would be good to incentivize this for vets somehow. Maybe Mentoring should be factored into HoE discussions. Or you get a bonus to your rating if your student does well.

We could also reduce the number of deaths students get, to encourage them to move up to a new char.

So instead of just trotting out the "this is the way it's always been" argument, try and consider the actual pros and cons of the idea. Offer suggestions and criticisms to build on the concept, or reasons why it should be reconsidered or rejected. Just saying "I'd quit if we did this" isn't sufficient.

If we'd rather just play it how it is and ride it into the sunset, well, that's an option too I guess.

P.S. Many people here should educate themselves on the elements of debate. One very important concept is the Principle of Charity, which is like the opposite of the Strawman argument. Please apply this to forum discussions so we can have productive discourse.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject:

I'm wondering do you know of, IRL a noob who suffers from these dilemmas? Or is this things that bother YOU about AR. Because I know from my experience learning these things... They were part and parcel what made AR more exciting. Losing all my shit made it so much more precious when I got it the second time. And yes, I have had so many absolutely distasteful shit happen to me, which is why i know even a fraction of what I know. Its because it was done to me first. I look at the only noob I know who plays right now and he doesn't seem to bothered by it. He keep showing up. If you asked me what a turn off of the game would be? To pick a random spot on any section of our forum or logboard and see the obvious strife we have here. Some of the shitty things we say to each other lol.
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject:

Rock: Dwindling Player-Base
Hard Place: Overcompensating by making the game too easy, hence gutting its appeal of risk vs reward.

I appreciate Stephen2’s effort and thought into what would help this dilemma. But I do think his suggestions go too far towards the hard place. I would instead recommend shifting attention to reminding players what AR is at its best (e.g., Valour throw down a few months back)

I still consider myself a relatively new player, because only in the last year and a half or so have I really gotten into the game at such a depth that I’ve started to understand what it’s all about. You know what makes me excited about AR and makes me wanna roll characters and eat the shit I’m going to endure? Seeing you badasses succeed. Groushtar and Thoom made me wanna roll giants. Dogran made me wanna roll a shaman. Illyiza made me wanna roll a necro. It’s the success of the veterans that makes noobs look and go “Damn... I wanna be on that level.”

I don’t have a direct answer for how to promote this side of AR more other than livestreams, better event turnout, and posting more logs. But I think this is where we have to turn our attention to at the moment, not some in-game mechanic that hand-holds new players. I think it’s more about a shift of culture, and promoting the best side of AR.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject:

We're definitely not going to allow the game to get cucked just so a few extra players might log on, I don't know what else to tell you.. but suck on the following. If you want to convince me you actually have AR's best interests in mind then you need to stop trying to ruin it. You guys all have choices so make the right choices and you won’t have to complain on the forums to try to get the looting removed from the game. Just because you do not want to accept this fact, does not make you correct. Your opinion is not fact, sorry to burst your bubble. Its my perception this thread, like many threads like it, was spawned by one individual who got carried away and did something that was pretty stupid. You don't punish everybody for that. You don't ruin the game with nonsense looting rules and nerfing a whole class because of one person's stupidity. So please vent your frustrations elsewhere and stop misleading the community that there is a huge problem. You do not have a valid point because you have equal opportunity to go do the same thing right back, and there is strength in numbers and those numbers are quite clearly in you guys favor (very much so) as evident from Legion being dead all year round.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:26 pm    Post subject:

Thats cause thorgoth wont let me in. His panties be to bunched up.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:33 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for the thoughts. Some of you understood where I'm coming from. Others ranged from:
- willfully ignoring that this would only be for some complete n00bs, and nobody here would use the option, your experience literally wouldn't change (unless you like curb-stomping brand new people??) TO
- thinking there's some grand conspiracy and telling my my motivation comes from something I don't even know WTF you talking about Dav xD

Motivation is very clear to me:
- I've seen 4-5 newbies go through AR in 2021 thanks to Kalist's hard work in Reddit
- I've seen them all leave (pretty sure, like people just aren't in Discord any more)
- It would be insanely nice to see some stay
- It is ludicrously hard to catchup on decades of knowledge, and I though an "on-ramp/ramp-up" option would have been cool

Ideal world, I guess we'd have exit interviews with each leaving newbie, and figure out what to change that would suit everyone.

------------------

I think this sums it up: "We're definitely not going to allow the game to get cucked just so a few extra players might log on"

That's cool. Everyone is hardcore. I'll just enjoy what I've got, and do my little part to be nice to new people I see.

I like what we've got BTW, in case anyone was wondering, think it's incredibly deep and challenging, and fun.

------------------

LOL at BladeFury 15 years, I love you BF, but 15 years around here probably makes you a youngster haha

------------------

Thanks all
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Arunore



Joined: 05 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:28 am    Post subject:

We are all coming from a good place. You are all good people.

What we really could use for newbie retention is an introductory rank in a Coterie that requires the Freelancer class, induction unto the Coterie, and requires the NEW player flag from creation.

Then you can allow restraints and forbid things from both directions. There should be a shelf life for this process, to urge graduation from the Freelancer class into the desired class. I see something like this falling into the hands of a Mystic, and then on honing your skills and learning the game, you can gain the approval of somebody (Cabal and/or Coterie players, noteworthy players, etc) to ascend into "adulthood", like a baby bird leaping from the tree to take it's first flight.

That would be my pitch to it all, and it's not perfect, but it is derived of what Stephen has suggested.

I see doing it something like this as a better means to monitor newbie behavior. You're not going to fool the gods or vets, and the rewards for a real newbie player graduating could be some real flare or ammo IC. For STORY DEVELOPMENT.

Ashlyn once said that it is incredibly easy to tell who plays who here. And that could not be further from the truth. All you have to do is let them talk, or read their description, whatever. It is actually quite hilarious how transparent we all are, myself included. But that doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about, I guess maybe a process like the above suggested would help growth in the roleplaying department for us all.
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