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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 5 hours.

Davids vs Goliaths
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twerpalina

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Joined: 16 Mar 2018
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Location: Utrecht, Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:44 pm    Post subject: Davids vs Goliaths

There is a grave imbalanced in weapon selection, especially against giant resists. I find it hard to convey properly without making a huge excel table or such, but here's a try:

I did not include ALL oversized weapons, just the very notable ones. It's insane what the weapon damage rolls are compared to 1-hand counterparts that you could actually use against a giant. Often there is none, depending on your align/ethos. Most of the time, there is literally nothing else to use other than a very crappy average 18< damage non-rare or DH/Valor relic weapons (and only for chaotics). This is progressively worse for non-goods who can't access all the holy/wrath weapons.

axe:

'Leese-Breaker', the Demolition Axe of the Barbarian - 30 average, wild
a double-bladed axe of devastation - 27 average

regular axes are 21-25 average, no magic axes

flail:

'Chautard-ta', the Meteor Hammer - 28 average

regular flails are 21-25 average, 1 good fire flail, 2 shit fire flails, very align/ethos limited

mace:

a Crackling Thunder Hammer - 26 average
a dead human wrapped in steel chains - 30 average
'Viel Dyreth,' the Maul of the Ancients - 27 average

some good physical 1h maces, but only 1 good locked mace and 1 wild mace for magical damage
not counting flame mace and pain mace that are noremove no_uncurse

spear:

a crude spear - 27 average
the Spine of Schwartzer - 28 average
'Un-Rkizk', Trident of Massacre - 25 average, magic damage
an onyx lance - 25 average
a steel-tipped spear - 28 average
the Spear of Ages - 22 average, gives/enhanced dual parry - too heavy for dual wielding for most 20-21 str races.

1 orderly unique spear that is magic damage, 1 crappy 21 average lightning spear

swords:

a huge iron sword - 30 average
a bastard sword - 24 average, magic

a bunch of 21 average magic swords, with 25 average being unique - most align locked

Mental weapons for vuln:
dream catcher, rod of mind sceptres (align locked), solar grasp of wendigo (yeah gl)

So basically, a giant with a couple of oversized high average weapons will have no problem finding weapons to beat you up with while it's a struggle to find any half-decent magic weapons that wont force you into weapon disadvantage. Vuln weapons are pretty much useless, unless you have access to frostbrand sword, ice staff and fight a fire giant. Otherwise you'd have to wield daggers.

This is creating a huge imbalance considering the playerbase is smaller, hgods are rarer and people have ability to absolutely pimp their chars out over time.

Given the fact that you can't enchant Uniques now, some Uniques that offer magical damage actually lose out to DH/Valor weapons or stuff like Frostbrand sword, because they offer more bonus damroll than weapon damage roll from Unique weapon makes it worthy.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:48 pm    Post subject:

My suggestion is to introduce more magical weapons or remove some ethos / align locks from existing selections.

It's a bit far fetched to rely 1-2 Unique weapons to be able to compete against giant resist when chances of getting those are slim to none.

Giants already have the best parry and parry overcome in the game, being weapon disadvantaged with a crappy 14 average vuln weapon vs 30 average oversized weapon or trying to match/overcome weapon advantage with 18-22 average vs 28-30 average weapon is really not a good way to promote more non-giant serkers/warriors into the game.

There's literally absolutely no reason to play any other warrior / serker other than a giant if you are looking to min/max and be competitive.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject:

And in defense of giants, the wood vuln on storm giant is a bit funny.

Beating up a giant with a wooden plank uh oh
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:07 pm    Post subject:

Sorry, Solar Grasp of Wendigo telekinesis is energy damage not mental. My bad.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject:

As someone who is a prolific giant player. There is a really good balance in weapons that destroy all giants. Period. You are just not looking hard enough. Just an FYI. Almost all the bad vuln weapons are blades. Like sword of seasons. Icy blue dagger, emerald sword, crusader sword, etc. All hit the weapon advantage AGAINsT the giants natural weapon of a mace. Also they just did a complete overhaul of all of the weapons. They are fine
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:10 pm    Post subject:

Honestly... I don't feel like you play giants only fight against them. I would go a step further and say that giants have too many vuln weapons out there and they should be dialed back some. Because I know when I played my last fire giant everyone and there dog had frost brand swords and they kept them and the ones who didnt, had ice maces and I implore you to roll up a fire giant and deal with a tenors wearing paladin wielding a frost brand. It's not a lot of fun. Even icicles destroy a fire giant and they are garbage.
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tayyah



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject:

Sorry Freud slip lol. Was thinking maces. Meant ice staff
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject:

There could probably be more weapons that use unholy wrath. Not really giant specific, but throws non-goods a bone.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:06 pm    Post subject:

Thinking about weapon damage types, heres an idea:

Let clerics bless weapons(maybe as a boon?) with their deities element/adjacent element attack types. Would involve interaction with religion and player interaction and also introduce some mystery with weapons. You would have to figure out what the odd elements blessings do, and it does overlap into invoker territory a bit, but it is an idea.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:21 pm    Post subject:

I did the leg work for you hahaha I kind of wanted to see for myself too, I stopped about 3/4s of the way through because I think this will prove my point hahaha....

crackling thunder hammer, a cryptic marked blade, morning star vainglory?(very least vs fire giant), an effigy of belligerent phantoms, the scythe of the grim reaper(is life drain magical?), A golden short sword, the mace of argent fury, sword of seasons, A deadly whip of bluish fire, A smoldering black mace, flail of intense molten fire, a mace of disruption, an ice staff, a marmelade orb, skull-headed mace, bastard sword, a long staff dripping with acid, the demonflame....
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:59 pm    Post subject:

That's only about half of them, there is also a shop in winter that sells some high average magical weapons
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:01 pm    Post subject:

You mean starfoil stuff? Thats all physical, no?
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject:

The Astral stuff below is all magical.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject:

ah yes, but those are 15 average dual parry enhancers/enablers for offhand...
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:37 pm    Post subject:

This seems to be rambling back and forth a bit. Is there anything really actionable here? I have not really notice any hole in evil weapons, so much as it being a huge pain in the ass to get hold of them.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:54 pm    Post subject:

tayyah is listing oversized weapons and uniques. in reality, the choice is not much it comes down to using crap damage weapons vs giants who wield oversized 30 average.

How is this even an argument? Anyone can open a codex and go take a look.

How is an oversized emerald longsword going to help someone beat a giant war/serker if they cant use oversized weapons themselves? Perma two-handed combat?

I just listed you all the viable weapons on first topic. That can be wielded in ONE HAND by non-giant sized races.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:00 am    Post subject:

Because if a dual wielding mace giant comes at me. I'm going to two handed a emerald longsword and destroy them? You said there was no magical weapons to take down giants. I listed 12. What's the issue issue? They range from daggers to staff and sword inbetween. There is every type and size in the list and I only put up 3/4s and this is just the RARES not to mention the savage weapons from darkhavem which are actually pretty good too and than all the high average non rares like the tainted Battle Axe. I just think you are pulling straws for no reason. Unless you wanna go my route and start taking back some of the magic weapons. Give them regular attacks inbetween so it's not just straight magic all the time. That is what I would suggest. Too much magic weapons right now
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:05 am    Post subject:

You should really put some effort into thinking before you post shit full of ignorance.

Discussion was about 1 handed magical weapons, their availability and their potential against oversized 1 handed weapons.

Why do you turn every post either on logboards or on forums into some braindead yapping?

You do realize that a lot of these weapons are align / ethos locked. Unique. Very limited rares?

You do realize that a giant would not be 24/7 wielding a mace. You need different weapons to combat weapon advantage (especially because giant's STR means you will always have a disadvantage at parrying/hitting through parry) and combat advantage?

You do realize that 21 average magic sword can not compete with 30 average huge iron sword or 28 average flail?

You do realize that magic is not a vuln for giants, its just to bypass their resists?

You do realize that effigy is not in the game anymore even?


So much ignorance in such a little brain.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:08 am    Post subject:

Because it's a vuln you numptee. You don't need a high average to hit a vuln you would fucking wreck the game. Don't you understand that it's a VULNERABILITY. Do you understand what that word means? Mace of disruption. One handed mace. Need more? The demonflame. It's like you didn't even read my post
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:11 am    Post subject:

I just told you that magic damage is not a vuln for giants.

Storm giants have wood, mental vuln. Wood weapons are a plenty, no problem here, if anything, ouch poor stormies.

Stone giants have only mental vuln - this is the big thing here, your 21 average magic weapon is only good to bypass the physical resists, but you will get smashed by high average oversized weapons.

Fire giants have mental and ice vuln, which helps a bit due to frostbrand sword and ice staff, both of which are actually not bad, given the extra vuln damage they compete with 30 average oversized weapons.


NONE of the giants have "magic vuln".

This just proves my point about your ignorance. Please stop polluting this thread.
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