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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 2 hours.

Make bards great again.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:42 am    Post subject: Make bards great again.

The title says it all, well, not really. I don’t have any ideas for skills/songs currently. Just the title popped in my head since I see so very little of bards running around. K thx bye.
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Vanisse
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Joined: 06 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:34 am    Post subject:

+1 bring back eye gouge Very Happy
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:54 am    Post subject:

a drum set that casts control weather when you play
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Vevier
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:07 am    Post subject:

We already have some cool unique weapons in the game; I'd love to see some thematic combat bonuses for using them to play songs. The pipes call a number of rats to your side (they act like scourge widows), Dav's control weather drums, a fiddle that starts a wildfire, a whistle that does a metal shards like affect and we all pretend its one big shard whipping around like Yandu's arrow), a guitar that makes you wanna rock with a couple rounds of devils dance while you headbang.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:00 am    Post subject:

Bards have a lot of useful tools, what else would you propose giving them? I'd like to see improvise weapon have a chance each round of giving them weapon/style advantage randomly. Aside from that +1 to eye gouge.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject:

Well I do like (and had put forth) the general idea of a rare instrument being played for a spell. Any instrument could easily add an additional 3-4 songs. Plus, this can be added without any code change. Songs of fly/invis/detect invis are all things can be obtained but would be made easier with a rare instrument. Currently they just min-max a lute, tuned for dex, in the held slot I think
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Kedaleam
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Joined: 25 Mar 2006
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Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:13 am    Post subject:

1. Give them reduced early mana costs like mages. Singing soothing melody for such high amounts early to just heal 1-2%hp was brutal even if the whole group gets the heal.

2. They need some sort of 'bard flair' skill to pass time early in combat. Throw at 20, uncanny attack is miserable. Maybe eye gouge gives it that bard flair till throw? Or some of these other ideas here.

3. I think I saw a suggestion a while back of being able to Hum songs to practice them and I really liked that idea. Training songs was very spammy.


These were in my bard notepad that didn't seem like unreasonable things. If you want my more unreasonable things like lowering their exp costs, let me know, haha. Very Happy
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject:

A couple of ideas:

1. An instrument, which, when played, summons your pet to you (restriction being they must be in the same area; inspired by Nethack's magic whistle item)

2. Give bards proficiency in mace AND give them a skill called "flourish" which can be performed with a one-handed mace/club which does additional damage and possibly do other things like short-acting delirium (inspiration coming from tricks in a juggler's repertoire... Depending on how you look at bards they can be considered entertainers or jesters sometimes).
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:17 am    Post subject:

right now I think almost/all of the non-rare instruments have no effects, meaning the only reason to pick any of them (other than rp) is to find the lightest one that can be held in one hand. could give them a minor effect for flavor. shop bought things in general are super meh which is a bit sad since all those objects are essentially useless. it would be nice if they were less useless.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:09 am    Post subject:

there isn't really a reason to use an instrument at all if you can keep phantom flute up. It allows you to keep cards in the off hand to do more damage. In my experience the random, sometimes very high chance with 100% throw, chance to throw cards is better than running around with a 2h for damage.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:01 pm    Post subject:

the instruments in Valour come with varying amounts of mana (so no need to tune an instrument repeatedly to perfection if that's what you seek), though most of the time when I play a bard I end up using either the lute from Liberty or something else lightweight, like the conch shell from Danas in Demea. The beautiful six-stringed guitar was really good when you could hold it instead of wielding it... But that also made it one of the best items for a necromancer to hold while wielding a sickle so I understand why it was changed (I've had necromancers use held instruments for their stats out of convenience, and even paid a bard one time to tune an instrument in the style of an invoker enchanting weapons/armour).

Anyway, making held instruments too strong means they become very useful for other characters who can use held items: counterbalanced rogues (thieves/shadows), necromancers, and possibly illusionists (squid especially) can all benefit from good held items. (the lamian stave seemed to suddenly become very popular years ago after I posted an identification on invokation as one example of a held item which had been used for a different purpose than may have originally been intended; also, back when imbuing was a thing, I sometimes imbued the chalice from Winter on certain characters, thus turning a item which did nothing at first into a held item with properties).
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject:

probably more helpful to the original concept of this thread would be to hear why people don't roll bards
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twerpalina

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Joined: 16 Mar 2018
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Location: Utrecht, Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject:

tried cpl of times, too much training for too little reward. also some shit is fundamentally lacking for PK. too much of a hit or miss
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject:

Re: Vanisse's comment... Although I've played bards (one of my first characters after a long break was a halfling bard), the main reason I don't like them is I find it more fun to RP other character types, and I see the bard as a class with a higher degree of RP element than most classes. I'm not saying the RP opportunities aren't there as a bard (I once played an elf bard who was a drunk who found amusement in irritating people and would literally use the water to wine song to become really drunk), but I don't like them as much regardless of how many PK restrictions they have (if any). Like their D&D roots, bards in AR are basically "jack of all trades, master of none". If I want to play a character type that functions primarily as a healer, I'd rather play a healer, shaman, or possibly even a druid. If I want a rogue type (for skills like lock picking and counterbalance), I'd rather play a thief.

The primary focus has always been RP for the class (particularly when there were PK restrictions), but even within that niche they can be boring to play (at least, that's my opinion). And that's the problem with the class in my eyes: it can be boring to play them.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:27 am    Post subject:

I dont play bards because I like to murder people too much...
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:32 am    Post subject:

if they had dual wield i would be super down, but then i think you might be asking why doesnt anybody roll shadows.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:43 am    Post subject:

Bards still have the last form of 1 hit kill, the death Tarot.
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:10 am    Post subject:

@twerpalina what do you feel is fundamentally lacking?

@davairus shadows can get their own thread
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Kedaleam
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Joined: 25 Mar 2006
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Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:37 am    Post subject:

To touch on what twerp said, what I didn’t like was training offensive songs. You can’t use them much while leveling because of the room wide affect and because most of them are initiate combat only. The only way to train them is in a safe space somewhere. With so many to train and not being able to at least get them to 80s before spam training it just takes forever. I lose track of which are initiate only and that in itself is a headache.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject:

Wel I actually think bards are close enough to a tipping point where I can name 1-2 skills to just completely break them. e.g. giving them trance. Then they'd be ready to start stalemating Warlords in the arena with 100 mana tick staying power. I think a thread where we make suggestions like this has a danger of undermining what is already there. Furthermore, I also think the goal should not be to try to get people to roll bards. Clearly, plenty people roll them. Just like people post Keeper applications. Goal should definitely be to build on what is working there, enhance enjoyment for those who already enjoy them, identify pain points, and also avoid doing harm to the game (like by pushing other classes out of play because they are eclipsed by bards). players decision to roll a character can be based on buzz. its not a good indicator of game balance. Why doesnt everybody roll avian warriors? Kicks a lot more ass than slith warriors I assure you. Answer is because we dont talk about avian warriors

Here is a thought, maybe bards arent as desirable to play because this class is seen (correctly) as support. we just dont have many players who play that role, but maybe nothing is actually wrong with them. it could be the support player is just discovering a bard (a rogue/hybrid) isnt healing as powerfully as a dedicated healing class and experiences a disappointment because their expectations were not set properly in helpfiles, and we also arent communicating how fucking ridiculously powerful that luck song is. Its passive, quietly OP as hell.

if I have had any success in balancing this game it is because I have played it frequently enough to at least experience being on the receiving end of most of my bullshit. There is nothing like getting kicked in the teeth by your own bullshit as a wake-up call that shit is fucked up. I could write plenty cautionary tales but its all very shameful and embarassing tbh. Eye gouge is from a dark chapter in AR's history and I'm glad it isn't me who has had to live with the guilt of that. I think for the stuff I have already talked about in game - which was to have super-spy type skills like eavesdropping, advanced disguises, and ways to discreetly cast songs, in addition with the suggestion put here about giving instruments their own songs instead of just being reduced to a stat-stick (i.e. a wand).. thats plenty of work already on our plates. This could be a great thread to actually flesh these ideas out more fully. and they arent likely to blow up in our faces like eye gouge.

OTOH, sadly, lazy suggestions like make the training go faster is just soul crushing after putting actual effort into the ideas. could try just let the songs practice to 100%, or try making songs and spells generally go up faster but its important to take into account that this will lead to an uptick in trash and delete from classes where none of us are accustomed to seeing that. That's because the investment is lowered and the feeling of achievement from finally mastering things will also be reduced. That's why that suggestion kinda sucks. If that is really a barrier to rolling a bard then it is a barrier to rolling a bunch of other classes besides bards. I might be a minority but I feel I liked this game better when getting to level 50 wasn't 3 surges and done, more like 3 nights of steady ranking, and I liked when training actually took a long time for everybody so that mastered skills from 1 practice was an advantage instead of just ordinary. I definitely dont share the view of making that even easier. The bad thing I can say about training is maybe it breeds entitlement from players who feel they put an effort into training so deserve some sort of special recognition for it (e.g. i mastered hand to hand and ten weapons a week ago, why arent i a warlord already?). I guess its possible that training being too hard could cause a feedback loop where that bard player end up feeling entitled to a more buff class. Especially when warriors and berserkers train everything on scarecrow easily.. but the investment clearly helps encourage the player to keep the character instead of simply rolling a new one, and that's something we ought to be cautious about messing with. we have had threads where we discussed ways to make training spells a more fun activity. I think we should just take the speed of training spells and songs completely out of this thread, though
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