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New Warlords Balance Discussion
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:15 pm    Post subject: New Warlords Balance Discussion

This is a continuation of the conversation started by myself and @twerpalina.
https://abandonedrealms.com/logs/view_log.php?id=1650

Alright, so it looks like your point about Warlord balance breaks down into three main points:

+1 forms
-1 no recall
-1 no pass door
-1 tenacity and cognizance are still worse than defenders potions, or even purples.

So first off, Forms:

You're highly downplaying forms. Maybe you missed the recent log where Szrevan, with by his own emphatic point is in a nerfed set of tenor, dealt 800 DAMAGE in three rounds. He wasn't hitting a vulnerability. Most of that damage came from strike of the cobra. This is of course ignoring all the utility that comes with swirling sandstorm, lion's deathgrip (for monks), lashing serpent, all of it. Forms are fucking awesome.

You're also ignoring medicine. This gives Warlords and extremely consistent, and practically free, cure blind, remove curse, cure disease, and cure poison. Also, AMAZING. Couple that with the fact that their stance and cognizance can't be dispelled, and Warlords become very difficult to fight for any spell-casters who use maledictives or mental... so like all of them.

As for no recall / pass door...

No recall or pass door is definitely a minus. But when you're dominating with Sanc-level damage mitigation plus all the damage and utility that comes from forms, who the hell needs them? Play smart, don't be an idiot running into rooms with locked doors without the key. Accept if that one niche guy with shape of the wraith can run through doors. You'll probably end up catching him with some solid RNG and deal 800+ damage to him over three rounds with murder + bash.

Tenacy and Cognizance...

Don't underplay how farm-free sanc and dinv changes a player experience. It's INCREDIBLY freeing to be able to walk around without having to farm those. From a tactical perspective, being able to press the attack without having to constantly quaff another purple or detect invis is fantastic. You just have to worry about your mana pool, and let's be serious, you'll be fighting for a LONG TIME before you have to worry about that (unless you're a monk and healing constantly).

Finally, what we agree on...

Yes, we both agree Knights need some help. Legion got awesome shit, Justice has always had awesome shit at the expense of being hated. But Knights got what, some hand-holding for their squires?

What I see happening here is that Keepers are going to be consolidated under Warlords, which I REALLY hope doesn't happen. Warlords don't have a place taking down the threats in any context except for a Vendetta because that threat offended their honor in some way. You don't need a reason to mobilize an entire cabal that excels at 1v1 combat versus other cabals whose powers are more spread out in other endeavors.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject:

So from my perspective, someone who plays a lot of shamans, paladins, dks and classes with a lot of utility, versatility and exit strategies I still see Warlords as kind of a crap compared to all the variety you can get from using magic.

If I would play a Legion Serk, I would be able to utilize fly scrolls effectively cancelling out being able to be tripped to death, unable to walk and sleep with mania and having less lag for murder/flee spam.
I would be able to utilize misty potions to pass through doors and after the enemies instantly and recall away when things dont go my way, also avoiding ganks.
I would be able to use a lot of undisclosed powers for utility/versatility and most importantly abduct people.

If I would play a Knight Serk, I could imprison them, get a half-decent weapon self-heal and a mount to save from fly scrolls.

If I would play a Justice warrior, I would have endless selection of actually very good weaponry, pimp helm, pimp special guard and practically a safe space to lick my own sack at. And also confine vs anyone wanted, which is huge and underrated.

All three cabals would give me farm-free sanc and detects. I would only need to farm gyvels, which I can get a mountain of in a very short time and then brew them into flasks so they wont decay. I would not need to wait 1 tick each time my smoked bat fails to cure me, I'd just spam quaff gyvels until it works.
When I get cursed or plagued, I hit the priest and heal it off.

If I would have Warlord, I would have cool forms, that may give me a win or they may never even proc. RNG, i dont like RNG.
I would have still a shit sanc because tick catching in PK is so super important that I can't see why nobody has brought this up.
I would not be able to utilze a shit ton of consumables that I am used to rely on. Recalls, mists, gyvels, spice, herbal brews and a fuck ton more that i constantly like to use to turn the fight.


TL;DR Justice>Legion>Knight>Warlord when it comes to ACTUAL open world PK, but if you are talking about duels where people are face tanking raged serks then sure, Warlords are pretty badass. In real world, you would just run around, out sustain them and fuck them up with several advantages that you have.

Also, Warlords literally have not been changed for years, all they did was get a slight increase to their gimp sanc to match normal sanc. I don't see what's the fuzz about?

If anything, we need to whine about Knights not having attractive (fun factor) powers.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject:

Also, the RNG proc rounds can't really be taken as an example, when Rhoa 1 rounded Fenlorn from 500 hp...
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Ashlyn



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject:

Why are we discussing cabal powers that are ostensibly secret? Kinda two discussions going on here.

1.) Knights needs a huge buff, dirt kicking/bashing horses imo. Maybe buff their set. Objectively some of their powers are cool, but not as useful. Align restriction and minor restrictions in how they can act.

2.) Keepers has been kinda dead for a while, except for Fenlorn who isn't active often. They have a lot of cool things going for them which seem balanced/a little under balanced. No rare restriction, follows the pendulum

3.) Justices are fine, have a tough job get the best powers. Has the most restrictions in exchange for this and their powers are most useful.

4.) Warlords went from being dead to most active cabal in about a months time. They have restrictions on using magic(no fly, no recall, no poison, no armor, flesh armor, teleport). They also have restrictions on how they can act. In exchange for this, they don't have to deal with consumables(also have consumables for some mals) and get cool looking forms. Also following the pendulum?

5.) Legions have been in the same boat as Keepers being dead for a while. They have an uphill battle because they make themselves the enemy of everyone at some point and have(had?) some decent powers in exchange for it. They have the most freedom to act out of any cabal.


I think other than Knights, the other cabals are in a good place powers for responsibility wise. Warlords look strong because of their activity. What I see is one highly skilled player with best in slot gear dominating and a couple of decent and highly active members. If we moved these people into any other cabal suddenly I think we would be saying that cabal is OP. Their aren't enough active participants to keep every cabal active and strong numbers wise.

As for your second point, I don't see a place for Keepers being consolidated into Warlords. Getting Keeper stuff would make them OP. I do kinda like the fact that the Warlords now follow the pendulum? Seems to be giving them a valid reason to do something other than spamming no death duels in the arena.
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lionSpyre



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:29 pm    Post subject:

We all definitely agree Knights need help / more attractive powers to lure people in. I for one had a Knight candidate recently that I was training forever (55+ hours), and then I was asked to keep training forever, so I deleted and moved on.

@Twerpalina, Zerks can't use scrolls. I'm guessing you mean herbs, which take two hours to grow. You're also not mentioning the fact that, out of all of the cabals, Warlord's cabal currency is by far the easiest to get (fight overlords or duel and win... which given your powers, isn't that hard). What I'm getting at here is that all of these consumables take a considerable amount of time and resources to build up. Tayyah deleted a pretty dominant legion FG warrior for this exact reason. Unless you've got tons of time on your hands, staying on top of your consumables is not trivial. If your answer for that is just 'be better', then I'd like to see you roll a Knight Zerker / Legion Zerker / Justice Warrior and maintain it for as long as we've seen the currently active Warlords. Warlords get the power of fighter classes with the flexibility of hybrids because they don't need those consumables. It's not something to scoff at. It's why we see that they typically have such longevity.

@Ashlyn, you make a good point about Warlords looking strong due to their activity. There have been a couple of nonwarlord vs. warlord victories on the records since their recent buff. But, there are SO MANY MORE THINGS YOU CAN DO THAN JUST SPAM NO-DEATH DUELS. I've been waiting for a Warlord to come along with the balls to death-duel. Szrevan was doing it for a while, but he stopped. Still, I respect that he probably ate a good dozen deaths or so before he stopping. But Warlords follow their own personal objectives, as long as those objectives don't break their code of conduct. I've had a Warlord character in mind for a while that could use Vendetta's for more than just 'you've besmirched my honor'. People can get creative here and make the hard character choices that will ultimately result in better gameplay. As inconsistent as Conundo's RP was, one thing we all liked about him is that he wasn't afraid to Vendetta you if you refused to duel him. It literally says this in the description of Warlords.

One thing I DEFINITELY don't agree with though is them following the pendulum. This is exclusively a Keeper thing. Why would they follow the pendulum?? What are Warlords doing to 'preserve balance'? It's completely out of keeping with their whole lore. From the side of mechanics, no one wants to be staring down the barrel of fighting more than one Warlord at a time. It's one of the main reasons why they're restricted to solo combat, which will definitely come in conflict with following the pendulum, unless they agree to take on the threat one at a time.

I'm guessing we're going to hear from Davairus about this soon. I don't think any of us want to see Keepers be consolidated into Warlords. But if Warlords follow the pendulum, it steps on the Keeper's toes. No one likes that. Why don't we just give Consortium members mounts and let them purify corpses, since they have a few good-aligns in there that occasionally agree with Knight virtues?
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Mikoos



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:38 pm    Post subject:

There’s nothing wrong with Warlords enforcing the balance. Somebody’s gotta do it and in 2021 it makes sense.

If anything players need to put more thought into who they gear. HGODs are not the answer. Study the character and just say no to giving them everything good in the game if you know they’re going to turn into a wrecking ball.
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lionSpyre



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject:

@Mikoos, elaborate your point, as I have above. As I said in the forum, I'm open to being sold on this, but saying it does because it's 2021 (which I assume is just referencing that Keepers are inactive) doesn't make it the case.

Again, we don't make Nobles enforce the light just because Knights get sleepy.
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Mikoos



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Gah. Can’t you just take my word for it? Fine.

It’s mainly about the player base and activity, but it also takes time for a Keeper to build up when it comes to gambling EQ and well. Secret cabal stuff. I don’t recall a Keeper ever having a strong long lasting hand on the balance. Probably because they’ve had a lot of flash in the pan types.

Anyway to get more on topic. The top tier players should be getting shit on more than us peasants. When activity flows back and forth from warlords and keepers. One will be more active than the other (usually) therefore there will always be a nuisance for the people on top.

That said maybe the pendulum needs some work.
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lionSpyre



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject:

Lol thanks, and unfortunately I can never take just people's words on anything. It's a blessing and a curse.

Player base and activity is a solid argument for passing the balance of the burden off. Warlords are more active + Keepers have been relatively inactive for a long time. Something has to change.

You make a good point in that it's hard to gear up a Keeper. This is maybe why people don't tend to roll them. The plus side of course is that you get to keep all that sweet gear even if you don't hit your 20 hours that month.

I always thought the solution to getting the pendulum back into play is creating more allure for Keepers (i.e., making their equipment easier to get). I saw some work was done towards this end, but just not a lot of people testing it. I never thought a solution would be to just pass it off to another cabal. Warlords never fit the bill of 'Balance Keepers' in my mind. I always figured since I started playing again ALMOST two years ago now, I'd eventually see Keepers back in action. But it hasn't happened yet.
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Kalist19
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:31 pm    Post subject:

Warlords are excellent in 1v1 arena based combat but are vulnerable to open world battles against equally geared/skilled opponent or against numbers. It has always been this way and I believe this is by design. Their cabal powers are the best and most unique in the game (rivalled in power by justice abilities but warlord are much more fun).

Knight and Legion powers are not strong and in my mind people don't join these cabals for the powers - they join it for the prestige/notoriety/difficulty. It's much more difficult to play as a Knight or Legion than unaffiliated and in my mind I respect these people more. It takes more cahones to be a badass pker with a call-bell (ie tap the guardian to get a fight) than it does to be unaffiliated and only fight if you hold every advantage and know you have a 90% chance of victory and no responsibilities if the fight isn't going your way (just run away and reset).

The main thing for any character in any cabal is essentially the skill of the player and the amount of time you are able to put in. You could likely take any of the best 5 pkers in the game and stick them in any cabal with any class and they will be able to do well.

The number of active cabal members for each cabal outside of warlord makes the pendulum a bit out of whack currently. It makes total sense if there are like 5 knights and 1 legion, but having 3 warlords taking a run at 3 knights seems a bit off.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:05 pm    Post subject:

Lionspyre, I have personally not seen any warlord refusing to duel until death, i have a feeling shag szrevan tearea are only duelling people to stun because people dont wanna die to them. I know i dont...thats why durak never duels to death, you saw what happened when i fought shaghroth, why would i wanna die on top of that lol

Its always the cabal thats doing best that is going to look like its the strongest. Except if they are Knights, haha. I played too much Knights in the past with my pallys i feel like i cant get any motivation to do the exact same cheese cliche shit again, especially if there's no proper evils and literally fuck all to do as a Knight if you got no Legion or vamps to spank
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject:

damn no edit button, forgot to say that it doesnt matter if you cant use scrolls, fly potions are a plenty, you can get them for relics or gold in several places. Darkhaven misty air potions can be bought while wanted too. I had a ton of them on Durak because they are just great to have even on pally. You can brew em into flask too so they dont disappear.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:11 pm    Post subject:

no edit button vol 2:

[quote]Warlords never fit the bill of 'Balance Keepers' in my mind. I always figured since I started playing again ALMOST two years ago now, I'd eventually see Keepers back in action. But it hasn't happened yet.[/quote]

in my dirty mind i see a warlord approaching the biggest baddest guy in prison and beating them up to show his superiority. warlords make war and beat up those who dominate? makes sense to me. Dont think its balance related, its probably about showing whos da boss.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:49 pm    Post subject:

Here's my two cents re: Keeper/Warlord.

Yes, Keeper has been dead for a long time. The few people who have joined seem to delete almost immediately. That points to a larger problem with the cabal, imo. There is also some consideration owed to the practicality of maintaining so many cabals with only 15 max players on Friday nights. It just may not be feasible.

So, moving forward we need to decide what should be done with the cabals. Right now, the Keeper/Warlord combo doesn't make sense. From what I gathered on the logboard, it was supposed to be more or less a non-agression pact. The Keepers were leaving the Warlords alone under the caveat that the Warlords really just putz around in the Arena and don't cause problems for the world at large. Well somehow that morphed into Warlords going after Threats and trying to swing the pendulum. That doesn't make any sense to me.

On the other hand, if we wanted to just fully merge Keeper and Warlord I could see a path there. I think that you could make a case for Warlords not using rares, what with all the forms they get and other powers. Maybe give them a little goose up to help compensate for no rares. No magic and no rares would be a tough row to hoe for applicants though. Also it would leave true neutral mages and druids without a cabal option. I guess chaotic neuts don't have an option either, so I don't know how big a deal that is (that also fits chao/neu RP too. Don't think they'd be big on clubs).

On to Warlords specifically.

lionSpyre is right, fighting a warlord as a mage is extremely difficult. Not being able to dispel is huge. And having all your mals instantly healed off is a problem too. Necro probably has the best chance if they land sleep, but even then once you wake them they instaflee and cure off everything. And they've only gotten stronger with getting protection via [cabal power] (which doesn't even make sense really since protection is only applicable to opposing alignments, but that's another discussion).

I don't know what to do about all of it. I'm not a big fan of reactionary changes because one player is dominating. At the same time, sometimes you don't notice those problems until they get a spotlight shone on them in that way. I do think a lot of the complaints actually stem from the EQ power creep I discussed on the set eq/forging post. That's a big hurdle to overcome even cabal powers notwithstanding.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:09 pm    Post subject:

so if i roll a random uncaballed underrated race+class combo, perhaps halfling warrior and get basic level 50 rares and kill all 3 warlords, will I be OP or are warlords too weak?

Asking for a friend
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lionSpyre



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:10 pm    Post subject:

@twerpalina Ok, I actually really like the idea of Warlord having beef with the biggest baddies to establish dominance. That’s dope. BUT, if that’s the case, there are two things that are really important that I’d like to see:

1) THREAT label should be changed to something like RIVAL. This makes it to where the Warlords have beef with individuals, not entire cabals (in keeping with their own code of conduct). That’s Keeper territory. But, in a way that’s still unique to Warlords, they are preserving the balance.

2) A warlord can be a RIVAL to another warlord. However, if this is the case, no auto death mark. There should be an official avenue through which the two warlords go through to challenge their rival. In keeping with the code of conduct, this should absolutely be done with respect, especially if the warlord is your superior.

These are minor changes that would still differentiate how Keepers preserve balance vs. how Warlords do so (to perpetuate their own legacy).
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:16 pm    Post subject:

Ergorion elite 5 years ago0
cheers
, 0
boos
, 0
yawns
.
Haven't read the rest of the thread yet but dude. Nah man. Warlords is empty because no one has made a badass fucking warlord that pushes the limits and creates cabal conflict. Everyone is just a fucking pussy dueling to the stun and singing koombayah. The cabal will gain traction when rivalries with other cabals develop and people get that pk-adrenaline hand shaking going.
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:33 pm    Post subject:

Warlords that never actually go to war is weird. just based on the name, they should have opportunity and plenty of it to wage war on people
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Xerties



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:36 pm    Post subject:

lionSpyre, I disagree. I think we should re-examine the ethos of the cabals.

Warlords exist to prove their individual combat prowess. They administrate the Arena to that end and enforce its rules. The only reason they'd go to war is if another cabal singled them out first. They only hgod people who break honorable duels. Aside from that I don't see them having a reason to get involved in the large political machinations of the world. They're single-minded prize fighters and don't care about anything else.

On the other hand, Keepers are almost the opposite. They only care about the larger world. The individual motivations and backstories are unimportant. If someone is too high profile, they need to be hammered down. Whether that's one person on a tirade, or a whole cabal, it needs to be balanced down.

That dichotomy is the only rationale for having any sort of non-aggression pact or alliance between the two. The only reason the Keepers would entertain such an idea, RP wise, is because the Warlords fundamentally don't care about anything except individual honorable combat and therefore a incapable of gaining outsized power and upsetting the balance.

EDIT: Vanisse snuck in on me there. To your point, I think that's just an unfortunate naming choice. If you look at the evolution of the cabal and where they're at now they're more like Pugilists (that's a horrible name, but closest I could come up with). They're just prize fighters. If they were to be making War against the dominant cabal that would put them in opposition to the Keepers fundamentally, since they would be seeking power/influence.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:41 pm    Post subject:

in that case, proposition to rename them Arenalords.
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