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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 11 hours.

Q4 2021 PATCH : Hail to the King!
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:37 am    Post subject:

Well I can understand the disappointment that strength damned putting a timer on a zombie is, even if that is two hours.

I think you would naturally just want some simple way to extend that zombie's lifetime. maybe with each exploded zombie you get to harvest its corpse (with your reapers blade that indicates your class harvests dead things) and find some energy that would add +mana to your equipped shroud. So that way you are encouraged to stay online until it pops and reap the corpse later. Then later you can make the zombies last longer by withdrawing the stored energy from your soul shroud.

so for instance, lets say I have 3 zombies, I stay on 2 hours, each zombie explodes and I harvest them all for +15 mana (5 each). Then later on when I play again, I have 3 zombies, I want to stay another two hours, I can spend that 15 mana to get the refresh, and again at the end of the period I can choose to harvest the mana back, or keep spending 15 mana if I want to keep them around longer. but at the end of the session its eventually only going to be 5 mana stored per zombie, so I lose something there. However - if I kill a pc and soul capture (which would be a reason to keep zombies longer), i would have +20 mana on that soul, which I could then use once to top up zombies.

each soul shroud have max of 150 mana perhaps, which would be a nice bonus for vamp touching in wintering, but a necro would have to be careful not to completely zero the mana out because that would cause the soul to deplete and disappear forever. That would definitely be possible if the necro played sessions where they only harvested one zombie and the math worked out that way.

command "infuse zombies" or something, free command with strength damned. for shits and giggles it could explode your flesh golem into blood and guts that fly into your zombies
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twerpalina

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Joined: 16 Mar 2018
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Location: Utrecht, Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:15 pm    Post subject:

less QQ more pew pew patch is awesome necros are fine, lets massacre.
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Kalist19
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:22 pm    Post subject:

Dav seems like the idea behind zombies exploding is to prevent necros from sitting on for a full day with buff zombies and you're just proposing a complex way of allowing necros to sit on all day with buff zombies....
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:48 am    Post subject:

Well no, it just sounds complicated written out, but its not any more complicated than what you do constantly already just to get purple potions. and it could just create a wraith instead of zombies. magic damage. I think that would be a lot better really.

its basically this sequence

3 animate corpse -> strength damned -> explodes -> harvest what exploded -> make a wraith using that (low hp magic damage casters) or logout and save your wraith materials for later in the form of +mana and I guess try to get 3 wraiths which would be obscene farm.

I'm currently wondering what it is making this class so fun because it seems like it'd be annoying AF until fully geared in a load of AC so that you can just spam kill the mobs you want to raise with vamp touch/rend quickly. It does not exactly look like a blast if things are hard and they fail to animate corpses on top of this. I'd expect being able to run around with magic damage wraiths at level 50 would be a game-changer for them.
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Dogran
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Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:16 pm    Post subject:

That seems really cool, how strong would these wraiths be in comparison to zombies/skeletons, would there be other benefits? Finally, would the opponents be able to sac these materials in some form or fashion to prevent this?

As another thought, what about specs for necromancers? I could see potentially some really cool stuff for necromancers if we wanted to borrow ideas from other games, IE thorns(Bone armor) or other types of negative necromantic spells instead of zombies and golems, etc. If there is any interest in this idea, I could flesh out what I am talking about further.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:01 pm    Post subject:

Vanisse, managing strength damned and only applying it when entering pk is one way to do it. But that will handicap your zombies in the mean time for PvE. It will mainly hurt your efforts of gaining better zombies. Most all zombies without strength damned get 1 attack per round, except the thief guardian who will sometimes get two attacks. So you'd being using gimped zombies trying to "build an army". Another problem with that is a few patches ago, flesh and stone golems got a huge nerf. From two possible attacks per round, down to 1 attack. Now you are using gimped golems, and gimped zombies to gain equipment, take down bosses, or trying to get better zombies.
Or you can skip trying to manage strength damned, use it as soon as you get a zombie(which can take multiple tries even with using decorate).
You can't farm corpses and store multiples in a sepulcher anymore. Sepulchers only hold 1 corpse now. Corpse farming is the only to withstand the zombies exploding. Say sepulchers are changed and can hold more corpses... your zombie explodes, you run to your lair to grab another corpse and hope you are successful on the first animate. You fail, and there's a 12 tick cool down from trying again. Doing all that to try and maintain a very average Army would just be frustrating.

There will be no more "super armies". Necros will now be average armies at best. Rugged sliths, thief guardians, and trolls. You won't have the fire power with non-strength damned zombies to take down the big guys for their corpses. Personally, I wouldn't go after those big guys anymore if they are just going to explode on me after 45 minutes. I would stick with the average to below average zombies and just keep cycling through the to maintain a half ass decent army. Which then means the majority of my time logged in will be going to get fresh corpses that I hope to raise on first try.
This makes decorate almost obsolete too. There's no way I'm wasting gold on a zombie that will explode soon enough. Especially a revolving door of getting new zombies over and over. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to get a few decent zombies, go farm gold, go decorate and raise corpses, try to use them for the 15 minutes you actually do have a average army at full strength. Zombie Explodes, go farm gold to decorate, go get new corpse, etc. Decorate corpse just isn't viable anymore.

Dav cool ideas with the mana/wraith thing. But, in the end, I think all this has gotten over complicated...simple solution might be to revert zombies/animate corpse to what it was a month ago.
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Kalist19
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:56 pm    Post subject:

Personally I was kind of disgusted to see zombies that can do mangles/demolishes along with the golems that do two attacks per round. Like, why do they need that when they have a bunch of sweet mals/afflictives/vamp touch?

I think Illyiza still would have had a lot of kills without super OP zombies.

Dav those wraiths sound really cool.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:41 am    Post subject:

subverting Resatimms will is not an option here in any case
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:35 am    Post subject:

I am a necro lover true to heart. Favorite class in the game. I'm not the only one. If it is up to Resatimm to revert the change, then I ask you to reconsider this decision Res. I have tried to lay out the current issues(compound from multiple patches as well) as to why this pigeon holes necros into a "below average/average army at best" class now, and a temporary one at that since your zombies vanish.
Out of all the changes I disagree with, this one hurts the worst.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:48 am    Post subject:

What our most recent necro was doing was logging on hours before the surge to collect buff zombies then bottom-feed on everybody in the surge and ruin the whole thing. This occured week after week, and it would result in the game dead and empty every Sunday. This class was single-handed causing the collapse of the game. I saw it logging in and demolishing groups, I believe if I am not mistaken that had something to do with why hamsamwich quit playing AR

Please refer again to my numerous graveyard posts where I detailed that "fun" required risk and a balance of fun means a balance of risk and reward on both sides. With a full zombies strength damned fully geared necromancer, who is taking the risk? Who gets all the reward? Its clearly poisonous. Necros in 1999 did not have the convenience of prepping before surges to then gorge on a spike of expected logins. The duration was an insightful decision by Resatimm that perfectly addresses this issue.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:22 pm    Post subject:

"fixed" the issue... but fucked the class as a whole. Necros have practically no chance now against the top 3 or 4 guys now. I've got ideas that won't fuck up the class completely. Now necros are a hassles, a headache, a pain to play.
I'd rather just stick with 3 level 54 skeletons that don't explode than deal with farming shit zombie corpses my entire log in time. Yeah they are low hp, but they have 4 rank advantage and with ghoul frenzy can to the trick.

There's a Emissary Outpost. Why not ask for input there before changing a class completely? I'd been happy to lend a hand before seeing this hack-job.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:34 pm    Post subject:

but there's 2 necros in top 5 ;o
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Kornhole



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Posts: 370
Location: Melbourne, Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:11 pm    Post subject:

So I tend to react too quickly, but my comment about making zombies worthwhile without strength Damned actually was well thought out... There was a change to animate or the zombies themselves that took away things like haste or second attack "because strength Damned will give it back" or some such.... If strength Damned is going to pop my zombies, make them worth a s*** without it.




Also this fix to that problem is like fixing a nosebleed by way of exsanguination. Hey this badass is too badass.... I'm going to go play hello Kitty island adventure. One could say this fix could be... Remove surges
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:13 pm    Post subject:

I personally have nothing to say in regards to the necro changes. Which I mean that I haven’t personally experienced the changes and IOT throw my two cents in, I would roll a necro and test them out before putting my ideas and suggestions into play.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:53 pm    Post subject:

This patch notes topic seem to have become a discussion thread about necromancers, which is obviously fine since they were affected by the patch... I have some thoughts about the necromancer situation and other possibilities which may be thematic with the changes, but for now let me focus on some of the good parts of this patch.

The Manor area is a great addition; that said, we already had options between fire giant outlaws and blood shamans for goodies. I won't complain about having another ranking area though!

Ozaru's wish regarding dryads and nymphs not entering the ranger guild in Emerald has now been granted; do we have anybody who is going to complain about this?

Serpent xp increase is cool, nice QoL change.


Now for my thoughts about the necromancer changes...

I've never been an especially great necromancer, but the necromancer is one of the classes (along with illusionist) which has always allowed players with more in-game knowledge to use that knowledge to their advantage. Knowing which zombies are worth raising itself takes trial and error or at least observing other necromancers in action. We've come far since the days of using Valen as the backbone of an army of magical damage zombies (I think Darzavius used him a lot after he saw me using him on one of my toons), or having a level 60 grizzly hunter zombie being relatively easy to obtain with ***DEMOLISHES*** damage and two attacks per round... But anyway, in the case of illusionists and necromancers, the phrase "knowledge is power" has always been true.

With that said, the changes to the necromancer class are significant. I like the idea of not having success being tied down to having no life and spending a long time on the game... I'm pretty sure most of us are adults with other commitments outside the game, which means few players have the time to spend many hours online to get the zombies.

Additionally, if we're going with the theme of the necromancer having armies which eventually stop functioning, it might be possible to make thematic adjustments. Slave mercenaries from Darkhaven literally seem to collapse after a set period of time rather than demanding more money like standard mercenaries do... Maybe the necromancer can summon an army of wraiths or specters like the illusionist has razor strings which eventually fade away, but which can also be sacrificed in some way (say, dismissed or banished) to heal the necromancer? (The last idea is loosely based on something from another game I've played in the past)
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:09 am    Post subject:

Xenyar how is anyone supposed to judge how much of a hassle a necromancer is to play based off of the opinions of one curmudgeony person. That is a serious question. I have loads of ideas for necros. Who cares about that? But we all care about being the other player dealing with 3 strength damned zombies and the "mage" (the squishy part of the army) who has 600 armor class and a 1000 hp. Like. It will take you 50 rounds of fighting to kill the person who can kill you in 3
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:45 am    Post subject:

BW the manor fits in levels between the areas you mentioned. Levels were not set with the intent to successfully hijack the title of best levelling area from mobs that obviously have vulns. But if someone is tired of ettins and unable to defilers/shamans, then the Manor should do perfectly.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:51 pm    Post subject:

I was referring to mountain trolls actually Dav... But I agree with you regarding the niche the Manor can fill based on what I've seen of the area thus far.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:13 pm    Post subject:

Oh I thought I read only shamans/fire giant soldiers. The mountain trolls are on my radar, already. They are standout gimp. They either need their stats fixed or their level lowered or perhaps the better fix is you should not get full exp from these mobs because they have been reduced hp and given a vuln. The setup does not work nearly so well as the kaddar faeries do (reduced hp + vuln but literally grouped and aggressive everywhere = high risk high reward).. I do think we should try to accomodate more instances of larger rooms of mobs to level on though. I haven't thought of a real solution to it.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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Location: Yes

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:34 pm    Post subject:

I said, "between fire giant soldiers and blood shamans".


My point was there are a number of options for ranking around that level but I like that there's another one now.
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