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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 6 hours.

yet another weapon switch thread
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:59 am    Post subject: yet another weapon switch thread

How are we feeling about this? The last patch added a very teeny amount of wield lag. Was it enough to make a real difference? Does the gameplay feel fluid / fast or does it feel overwhelmingly difficult to keep up with? Can we think of suggestions to make this better than it is? I do see plenty more room for improvements here.
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Mogu



Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:10 pm    Post subject:

I don't have issue with the weapon switch speed.

However, a newcomer would probably find it overwhelming to keep up with. When I started playing again this was the steepest learning curve for me. It just takes a lot of practice to be on top of it, which is fine, but if you're trying to attract newer players to the game they're gonna get wrecked by this mechanic. But I also believe there is way more to PvP than just weapon switching...my point being if you were to remove it entirely, a newbie is still gonna get wrecked by a vet who knows the strengths/weaknesses of every race/class.

Another consideration is that this mechanic incentivizes using your inventory rare limit to hold a variety of weapons (for fighter/hybrid classes anyway).
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:44 pm    Post subject:

My main problem with weapon lag being minimal is that it makes certain skills (quick wield from rogues and bards, and offhand alacrity/quick draw from rangers) effectively obsolete if you can (almost) instantly get an advantage without them (e.g. hobbling somebody with combat advantage just because your alias/macro is much faster than they are able to react).

With that said, I'm not sure how this can best be fixed. I like the way it used to be where you didn't get an advantage almost as soon as you swapped weapons; this allowed rogues to be tricky opponents by swapping with quick wield to avoid hobble. Whether that's better, I don't know.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:06 pm    Post subject:

My recommendation would be to prevent advantage for kicking in for one round and for that round being unable to parry/dual parry/shield block depending on what was swapped. Would make quick wield more valuable as well by avoiding such a penalty.
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:04 pm    Post subject:

It could also be totally different to weapon swap out of combat vs in combat. Think about it, your character is dodging and parrying, maybe even blocking with a shield, it should take more time for them to swap weapons unless they have a skill that allows them to do it faster. It would give incentive for folks to level up said skill.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:16 pm    Post subject:

From my experience it doesn't seem like the weapon lag has made a material difference. There's plenty of logs showing people switching to advantage and instantly hitting a skill.

I think Ashlyn has a good idea. One round delay before you can take advantage of combat/weapon superiority, reduced with quick wield. Although I think you should get credit for avoiding disadvantage immediately. So basically you're 'even' for that one round. That would encourage people to stay in combat instead of just insta-fleeing. Thinking of fleeing, it might be worth a thought to consider adding more lag to weapon switching out of combat with aggressive adrenaline. That would also help counteract people just fleeing to avoid this switch delay.

I also agree with Mogu's point that the style advantage mechanic is tough for newbs. Would be nice to have a mob or something that you could fight that would switch styles so you could practice.
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Dalero



Joined: 13 Oct 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:34 pm    Post subject:

I second a training dummy that changes advantages. The mechanic is there with the bandits in my rainier, to an extent. But they’re squishy at max rank and deadly enough to not be a great training tool.
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Dogran
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Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:35 pm    Post subject:

There are mobs that switch styles in combat. Take ranking in Mudfall for instance.
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Thorgoth
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Joined: 16 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:26 am    Post subject:

There are some trainers in Grimforge that switch too.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:13 am    Post subject:

There use to be a one round delay of combat neutrality after switching weapons. That was changed only in the last couple years. Now it is instant advantage after switching.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:29 am    Post subject:

I thought we got rid of that a while ago in a patch or something. Adding onto what I just read:

1. Instead of just having the "delay" for advantage to kick in, maybe a delay before attacks kick in? e.g. swapping to bow would actually have a time to "draw"/"ready" the weapon, so that it doesn't just lag you, but you can actually end up missing some auto-attacks because your hands were still busy performing an interim process. I do not think that having to wait for shield block to start would be as fun, though.

2. Might it be interesting if **swapping** something in a given hand dropped it? e.g. if I wanted to go from dual wielding an icicle to immediate shield block, I can wear shield in one command but it causes me to drop my icicle, and then I can choose between sideswipe or picking my item back up. remove dual ; wear shield would be an unsafe workaround as it takes longer and runs the risk of a dirt kick. Currently I think the game has some clunker scenarios where you have to remove a shield to dual wield or something, not very fluid.

Its probably easy to up the lag a bit more or just put the delayed effect back in if that seemed better than not having it.
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Mogu



Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:03 am    Post subject:

1. I like this idea a lot. If you think about it in a practical sense, as you've described, you shouldn't be able to start swinging/stabbing instantly. But I worry adding a delay would lead to even more fleeing in battle. Probably flee, move a couple rooms away, switch, reengage. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad...could give the other person a slight advantage to go chase them down and get that free opening round.

2. I always assumed those clunkier scenarios were by design so you couldn't alias weapon swaps as easily. I don't think dropping a weapon for switching combat styles mid-fight would be fun. I'd be frustrated by it more than anything. Replace your icicle example with a nice rare or unique.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:37 pm    Post subject:

Interesting ideas.

1. While this is thematically sound, I think this is a much bigger nerf than a simple advantage delay. You're missing out on several attacks in a round. I worry it will just encourage people to flee out if they're disadvantaged rather than eat a round of no attacks.

2. This is how it's done in DnD/Pathfinder. You can drop your weapon as a free action and draw a different one and still attack that round. This would make an interesting calculus for the wielder. "Do I want to just drop my weapon and avoid the lag/delay, or remove it and have to wait a round to get adv?" I think the overwhelming majority of the time people would not want to drop their weapon because sac 1. is a quick reply to that.

All in all, these are interesting ideas, but I think they're overly complicated. Ashlyn nailed it. One round of 'even' combat when switching. That's short enough that people aren't as likely to just flee immediately, because what if the other guy just used a two round lag skill? You'll still have a chance to hit an advantaged skill. But it's also long enough that the opponent can react if they're able. Plus, it makes quick wield relevant again. Also, we're bound to enjoy a hilarious log of two warriors switching styles back and forth for like six rounds trying to get adv. Some real Obi-Wan/Vader spinning their lightsabers at each other shit.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:48 am    Post subject:

I think that would end up causing problems again. The high strength guys end up having to wait to hobble , while the higher dex guys just switch/dirt and don't care. Its not really balanced that way.

what about if the game immediately gave you the passive bonuses (parry/dodge things) but there was one or more of the following:

(a) a "swap lock" that temporarily prevents the skill use, with dirt/bash/trip/kick exempt. (since those don't require a weapon to use. theyre feet or throwing your body - we could add hobble to this list by rebranding it as a "shin kick" too). that would enforce a waiting period similar to the proposal but isnt completely disabling everything. addresses the cheesy switch/barrage case without leaving people without gaining anything from being on top of the combat styles, which was the reason for the removal before..

(b) add more constraints on the skills weapons themselves, so for e.g. sidestep requires a dagger, sideswipe requires a shield, charge requires a spear or polearm, right? maybe barrage could require two axes (since those are the anti-shield weapons), overhead crush require a two handed mace or exotic rod / staff, this limits the cases where someone is getting pwned by frostbrand/icicle barrage or something, . BTW, I'm not picking on fire warriors for any particular reasons, its just obviously these skills have really buffed vulns. in 1999 you didnt get to dual wield water on a dwarf warrior and then also lock him into just parry with barrage. That's really hardcore and I think a driving reason why we still talk about this stuff.

(c) i am still in favor of just switching weapons easier, maybe "wield <sword> dual <dagger" and "wield <sword> shield <buckler>" could even be done in one command. so that way you can just make an easy alias instead of having to fast macro in cmud. might be more newbie friendly. maybe for a bit of fun we could allow the character to choose a dominant hand during creation so that you could fight southpaw
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:14 am    Post subject:

I'd be in favor of a delay of about 1 round after switching weapons in combat before one can switch weapons again. Exceptions would be the quick wield skills and a warrior double gripping.
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Mogu



Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:44 pm    Post subject:

a) I like everything suggested here. Adding a 1-round delay to certain skills, like barrage, after swapping weapons would even out certain match-ups and is generally more newbie friendly.

b) I like this idea as well. If you do this I think it would be good to revisit some some rares/uniques and tweak them slightly so they can be tailored more towards certain skills. I'd love to see new tailored stuff added too (both rare and non-rare). Gives players more reason to go seek out certain weapons to prepare them for certain battles.

c) I love this the most. It seems like such a simple fix and it would be a quality of life improvement. For example, holding an item while you're wearing a shield automatically unequips the shield in place of the held item. But trying to equip a shield while holding an item..."your hands are full!" Never understood why it works one way but not the reverse.

@Olyn - Agreed. I like giving quick wield more purpose. Right now is seems like a waste of practices. Double grip makes sense too because you're already wielding that weapon with one hand so the warrior should'be be penalized by simply double gripping it.
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optimuscat



Joined: 09 Jun 2017
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:59 pm    Post subject:

I wanted to stay off of the forums, but since you guys are going to destroy the game I will just speak on this.

This entire thread is about Vok vs Jinjarak

Vok knew with jinjarak I would start the fight two handed. He would start defensive, I would switch to dual wield to hobble or barrage but he would switch automatically to bow. So when I would enter the command to hobble or barrage he had already switched to bow. So to counter his plan I would just switch to defensive and it was just 3 or 4 consecutive switches in one round which looked pretty stupid where we are just standing there autoswitching in one round. As long as I kept switching weapons my eq could keep up with the damage rather than lag myself and end up eating stupid damage.

It seems more people are just using an alias to switch weapons, so weapon /combat skills are useless when you think u are advantaged but you aren't since your opponent is baiting you into switch and entering a combat skill where they can take advantage of you lagging yourself because instead of weapon switch combat skill, they are weapon switching twice and then using their combat skill.
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Mogu



Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:08 pm    Post subject:

I disagree. Sorry, but I don't this this is about you. This goes back way farther than that.
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Scrynor



Joined: 26 Jul 2021
Posts: 82
Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:35 pm    Post subject:

What if you addressed it by adding a new condition to trigger skills (new and old) off of?

If you weapon switch right in front of somebody without quick draw you get the "vulnerable" designation for 1 round. Then classes have various skills they can tag you with when you are vulnerable. So you can still swap skill somebody but if you do it to a rogue the can try to blackjack you mid combat while you're vulnerable (just an example not intended to be balanced).

Then you could build off of this. Different things that add vulnerable. Different things or different speeds (or removal of other reqs) you can do to somebody who is vulnerable.

A change like that could change the whole meta while keeping what is there that many are very good at while adding more class differentiation.

But then I almost always vote add over subtract... I'm not the implementator! Hah.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:27 pm    Post subject:

The weapon switching and advantages should all just go away. It’s like a mini game of rock paper scissors.
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