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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 14 hours.

orderly vs chaotic
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:34 am    Post subject: orderly vs chaotic

ok, so combing through the codex of various armors/weapons that are orderly/chaotic, it seems that the majority of high-end rares and what not ae chaotic. So I was thinking, what is the benefit of being orderly vs being chaotic and it got me to thinking that maybe being orderly is more about defense than chaotic's offense. Which then got me to thinking if someone that is orderly is fighting someone wielding a wild weapon, on a wild strike the (orderly) armor could have a chance to respond and rebuff the attack or something like that. Just a quick thought I had.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:36 am    Post subject:

rebuffing the attack could either severely dampen the damage, or maybe the armor hardens in response to a chaotic attack and could have a slight chance at disarming the weapon itself due to the increased density of the armor and the unsuspecting chaotic person with the wild weapon. Shrug.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:09 am    Post subject:

the old Justice Kite Shield was kind of OP. I'm not sure if that's what you're thinking of, but it caused damage to the attacker whenever a wild attack occurred on the Justice.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:39 am    Post subject:

The main advantage of the wild weapons is that the turmoil damage is generally always useful... they're magic weapons, but the element is of a kind that also ensures nobody has any natural resistance to them. what you are proposing is to remove that advantage but only for lawfuls. Well, ok, lets say we do. Wont we then say, what about neutrals?

It probably would have been better if the weapons were generally just regular physical weapons unless the attacks are wild attack, which will then be always turmoil. that makes the lower ave dam a lot less crazy and easier to compete with, and it also (because of the generic damtype of turmoil) removes the vuln instant gib problem that comes with high end wilds that actually arent turmoil and do have the capability to hit double damage on vulns.

I dont have an opinion on the orderly vs chaotic rares, except that generally finding a 2005 rare you can't use anymore because of a flag (wild OR orderly) is hair-tearing out level of frustrating. I think its a terrible idea to restrict equipment by ethos but being chaotic to score wild attacks seems fine
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:59 am    Post subject:

Dav, neutrals can also use orderly equipment. Only chaotics can't. So again, what's the benefit of being orderly compared to chaotic if you still think wild attacks are ok, but there's no additional benefit of being orderly? If that's the case why would anyone choose orderly unless they were looking for particular item load out and didn't care about wild attacks?
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject:

Well, I'm just disagreeing about how to do it. Also I notice you are saying 'orderly' whereas the word lawful on AR directly denotes to obey the laws of seringale for all lawful players. evil lawful justice does not seem like it would need to be made even higher defense on top of the town-hugging. the largest benefit to being lawful (at least evil) is to be able to join the justice cabal and rule over everybody. Literally, evil justice is the game's biggest baddie. if you dont want to join the justice cabal, not sure why you would roll lawful then since you still can't attack in town. I mean your character is really interesting and different right up until you start feeling the laws are just getting in your way, at which point you cease being lawful so you might as well join the justice cabal. I am not entirely sure how the system could be changed so that lawfuls would not have to go justice to similarly take advantage of laws but I know a minor armor bonus is not going to change the situation. Constables are kind of good that we have them but they tip your opponent off that you are lawful which screws everything else up. I think being able to place fines would be enough, but it might end up abused, although we can always deal with that.
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Ceridwel
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Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:11 pm    Post subject:

I seem to remember we already had a variation of this wild vs orderly items discussion sometime in the last few years or so. I'll see if I can find it.
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Ceridwel
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:14 pm    Post subject:

I think this is it:

https://abandonedrealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11988&highlight=chaotic+wild+orderly
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:05 pm    Post subject:

I want to say from personal observation that the current top 3 PKers in AR are all of an orderly (e.g. non-chaotic, and able to use orderly items) ethos... Militha and Kryton have both been seen with the Adjudicator's polearm (which is an orderly weapon), and Quinace is a monk (so he can't be chaotic).

As such, I don't think we need to introduce more orderly weapons at this time if that's what you're suggesting Rothak.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:52 am    Post subject:

Yeah that hit a dead end even after all the stats I listed at the time.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:06 pm    Post subject:

how about orderly gear that dampens vulns or adds resistance -that gets neatly countered by the fact chaotic weapons generally dont hit them, as previously mentioned, and it lets us dip a toe in to seeing what kind of effect it would have to add iron resistance.

e.g. random elven crown of nobility:

Reduces vulnerability to iron (orderly only).


Last edited by Davairus on Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:11 pm    Post subject:

Just curious. Why a change now and not when presented? Reading back the justifications that were given, what’s changed? Orderly eq is “typically better” compared to ramped up damage from wild.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Davairus wrote:
it lets us dip a toe in
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:59 pm    Post subject:

Rothak the sentiment is nice on this post but I don't think it leads us anywhere, we needed a few more suggestions of what to do versus just stating problems with no solutions. So, as another idea, how about we make orderly weapons to deal consistent - but not bursty - extra damage to chaotic characters / NPCs. If it is 25% nobody will play chaotic but at 6% we might get lawful warlord applicants and then the ultra-conservative players avoiding the chaotic alignment to minimize risk (which seems right). i think its just a matter of picking the right number to ensure people inclined to wanting to play chaotics would still find the level of personal risk acceptable in return for bursty damage
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Scrynor



Joined: 26 Jul 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:23 pm    Post subject:

If this is an open call for ideas... here comes whacky idea guy!

One thought I had was you stop focusing so strongly on the damage exchange element of chaotic and orderly gear and find another axis to play around on.

I always thought it would be fun if there was more to do with the reputation system in this game. Almost like another currency. If you could spend rep to accomplish something meaningful then you create an incentive axis to play with. So say a lawful character could burn his Seringale rep to order all the guards in town to attack a person he is fighting. Kind of like a costly one-off quasi Justice power (just an example idea). Now you could tie orderly gear into that. You could make a orderly decked character earn rep faster in orderly places. Or you could make using the ability cheaper based on the flying your flag by wearing all that orderly gear. That sort of thing. It could even make for odd permutations in arena fights if these rep spending abilities worked in there.

Just random ideas!
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deioped



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:18 pm    Post subject:

How about allowing neutrals to wear wild weapons but have them being unable to benefit from the wild attacks?

That would be the advantage of being the fence sitter. This way, we can add something for orderly and the same - letting neutrals wear em, just without the whatever orderly advantage.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:01 pm    Post subject:

There is no orderly advantage.
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deioped



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:50 am    Post subject:

I know, what I meant was letting neutral ethos be able to equip both chaotic and orderly equipment without getting any wild damage or anything they are discussing about implementing for orderly.

Because above, someone said neutrals would ask for stuff too, if orderly were given something nice. So my suggestion for neutrals was to be able to equip both types of equipment like treant thews where half the set is anti-good and the other half is anti-evil.

So the neutral advantage will be that you can use a wide range of equips but never getting anything from choosing a side.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:55 pm    Post subject:

Neutral ethos allows one to wear orderly equipment.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:14 am    Post subject:

Neutral ethos also is a middle ground with regards to breaking laws - if you're lawful and you become wanted, you'll become an outcast once you're apprehended or you surrender. Chaotic according to the help file is as much of a commitment as being lawful... Ilromie comes to mind as somebody taking this to an extreme.

Which brings me to a distinct benefit of neutral ethos: you *can* pay off wanted flags if you want to and you have enough gold. Chaotics can't, and as I just said, you're not supposed to break laws with a lawful ethos character.
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