berserker updates: mania, rage, relax

[Ozaru]

My 2 cents with the gorilla example. Yes they will wreck your face, but they will also get tired more quickly. Rage and mania really should be a 1 shot deal, you fail to get your kill its almost like you are drained. Right now a zerker with mania can just chase ur ass down bodyslam and basically its like a free haste right? You don't even need to chain bodyslam anyone because star damage comes out so easily. If we are to accept that berserkers is just mania rage bodyslam win in under 30 seconds that makes the game not fun. If I have to run for 10 minutes with a monk to try and heal and I may have a log of this, I actually ran out of moves at the end and I will probably still lose that's not fun either. What I think is really frustrating is that my dex is higher than a zerkers I have 2 parrys and dodge, I have a stance that increases my dodge yet I get hit with a devastate which is what 3 mangles in a row? what the hell am I dodging and parrying?

[Faelon]

Regen was gimped, in favor of some 'okay' abilities. Puma was fun, but I never did manage to use it to land a kill. You can get good regen for a whole group, which is nice, if you have a group to regen with and the time to plant it in a hidden area.

Mania/Rage was gimped to make it so you attack literally everything in the game. And thunderclash works sort of, but not really, to get things off of you. Still aggressive, so that doesn't solve that problem entirely.

Calm will stop a zerker, from berserking/mania/rage and also kills off 8 dam at level 50.

Overhead will rake a berserker entirely.

What more are we asking for here? Maybe it's time to change tactics, instead of asking for more gimps.

[Faelon]

Oh yeah and sleep while in mania and your movement drops like a rock, so regen is gimped again. Flight? Charge and watch the fun happen. Also there is aerial shot.

[Nycticora]

Berserkers are sufficiently complex IMO.

Previously a berserker had very few tools at his disposal. Rondak basically had regen, lag, and rage. He would rage on something and either kill it or die (usually die because swing killed the flesh golem and snapped him out of rage). When your options are so binary like that I really think the class sucks to play. I argued pretty vehemently for berserker buffs. Now there's a bunch of rage states. You can use Mania without Rage, Rage without Mania, or both together. You can pick exactly how deep into the rage you go to suit the situation, and it's hard to get right. This is correct.

There are now additional consequences for being in a rage (i.e. autoattacking Hyando). Those come with additional powers. This was intentionally done to increase the complexity of the class to give them more options. Yes, when played perfectly in the perfect situations berserkers are now more powerful than they were before. It's now significantly more difficult to play perfectly, though, and there are more opportunities to make mistakes.

Berserkers will be powerful. Toe to toe in an enclosed space they will be the MOST powerful. This is not likely to be reverted.

We will consider buffing other classes until they are also up to snuff if there are problems with those classes, just like we just did with warriors. I would not expect significant nerfs to berserkers if I were you. You're barking up the wrong tree. The age of nerfs is over. The answer to every problem is not to nerf the class you don't like. The answer is to identify the class that is not performing as expected and correct it so that it performs as expected.

Berserkers are currently doing what a berserker is expected to do. They go berserk and wreck house. Even a DK can not go toe-to-toe and pound-for-pound with a berserker without using tricks.

[ramod]

[quote] Uh, lorne, that happens all the time for other classes. Claiming that classes shouldn't have counters is just wrong. [/quote]

Give me an example of another example of this. A class that can totally counter the other's main primary skill with absolutely no saves against it.


Tame working on rage is really the stupidest thing ever. I can't even believe that was put in, in the first place. I rather lose mania if everyone is going to whine about it and get regene back. Trophies are such a big gimp compared to regene they aren't even close. Been playing berserkers forever and was pretty fine with regene and rage.

[Kato]

You realize rage counters a ranger's primary skill too, bow...

Even if you can get tamed, the ability to rage and instantly bodyslam a bow wielding ranger for 2 rounds of lots of damage vs none would put berserker at an advantage. If tame is removed, bow immunity should go with it.

Most classes have counters. You ever tried a cleric against illusionist or necro? Invoker against any geared fighter or hybrid, or god forbid a berserker even in malicious beast? Those are not really winnable fights, if your opponent knows what he's doing. Berserkers don't get to be great vs everyone either.

[Ergorion]

But let's be serious,,, berserkers aren't hard to kill. Just out damage them and lag skills.

[Faelon]

There are 8 active berserkers. Barg, Krug, Listra, Lorne are the only ones at 50.

I will use Krug as an example;

0- 1- 0 Melzzyndra the Unholy Lady (Fought at rank 50)
3- 4- 0 Kehriyl the Grand Mistress of Seasons (Fought at rank 50)
3- 2- 0 Andulorian the Battlemaster (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Throm the Unholy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
1- 2- 0 Lutha the Holy Lady (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Crynna the Holy Matriarch of Healing (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Kedaleam the Holy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
0- 1- 0 Meillon the Mistress Bard (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Rohandric the Battlemaster (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Amira the Sage of Arcane Power (Fought at rank 50)
0- 2- 0 Orrin the Volcano of Infinite Rage (Fought at rank 50)
0- 1- 0 Weawin the Unholy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Sylos the Battlemaster (Fought at rank 50)
0- 1- 0 Taganoth the Holy Knight (Fought at rank 50)

Krug, the easy button fire giant, has been beaten by another Berserker, a warrior, a bard, a few dark knights, a few paladins and a monk. He also beat those classes on a number of occasions. Interestingly, these are just about the only classes he fought. The exception is an invoker and a healer.

No offense to Krug, he is actually doing quite well with his record, beating some skilled opponents and taking some losses. That's what the game is about and so I tip my hat to him.

That aside. Someone please, show me in the above where the easy button is? If you are incapable of beating a berserker, it would seem that this is a YOU problem, not a game problem.

If this was an easy button class, then the above berserker would have a +75% win ration, instead of a sub 50% ration. Instead, he got his record via skill with the class. Suggesting it's an easy button class insults everyone who plays the class, because what you're doing is suggesting that they only got the record they've achieved because that class is so 'easy'.

[Faelon]

2- 5- 0 Draccus the Ruler of the Dead (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Filke the Lord of the Underworld (Fought at rank 36)
1- 0- 0 Valejumal the Keeper of the Valley (Fought at rank 3
0- 1- 0 Trinne the Pillar of Faith (Fought at rank 41)
1- 0- 0 Myri the Sage of Arcane Power (Fought at rank 50)
0- 2- 0 Lorne the Volcano of Infinite Rage (Fought at rank 50)
0- 1- 0 Rosaeth the Seducer of the Living (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Meillon the Mistress Bard (Fought at rank 50)
1- 2- 0 Weawin the Unholy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
2- 0- 0 Juleis the Grand Oracle of Spectres (Fought at rank 50)
2- 1- 0 Rohandric the Battlemaster (Fought at rank 50)
0- 1- 0 Darzan the Unholy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
0- 1- 0 Houroo the Grand Master of Seasons (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Argose the Unholy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
2- 1- 0 Andulorian the Battlemaster (Fought at rank 50)
0- 2- 0 Tule the Volcano of Infinite Rage (Fought at rank 50)
1- 1- 0 Amira the Sage of Arcane Power (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Crynna the Holy Matriarch of Healing (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Torbath the Volcano of Infinite Rage (Fought at rank 50)
2- 1- 0 Kewlin the Battlemaster (Fought at rank 50)
0- 2- 0 Melzzyndra the Unholy Lady (Fought at rank 50)
2- 0- 0 Lydria the Wrath of Nature (Fought at rank 50)
4- 3- 0 Krug the Volcano of Infinite Rage (Fought at rank 50)
1- 1- 0 Goron the Holy Patriarch of Healing (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Harkashe the Holy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
0- 6- 0 Ilrina the Wrath of Nature (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Iryn the Sage of Arcane Power (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Kedaleam the Holy Knight (Fought at rank 50)
2- 0- 0 Dahn the Grand Oracle of Spectres (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Lutha the Holy Lady (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Orrin the Volcano of Infinite Rage (Fought at rank 50)
2- 0- 0 Sylos the Battlemaster (Fought at rank 50)
1- 0- 0 Shiyun the Grand Master of Seasons (Fought at rank 50)
3- 2- 0 Barg the Volcano of Infinite Rage (Fought at rank 50)
0- 2- 0 Taganoth the Holy Knight (Fought at rank 50)

Duels: 74, Wins: 39, Losses: 35 (Win Rate: 52%)

Also, simply because it seems that as a community we are intent upon saying that all zerkers pwn all monks.

His record against berserkers is 9 and 9. And two of those were against Lorne, which based upon previous battles with him, he was probably in his "Imma fuck you up" suit of items, so can likely be discounted, but fuck it, we'll keep it at 50%.

What the fuck is more even then 50%? What precisely is it you are looking for? Kehriyl's entire ratio is 52%. He wins half, he loses half. What more balance do you want?

[Davairus]

Lorne, understand your concern, but like you said, rage completely counters bows. So that means rangers need something to counter that back, or it makes for a one-sided matchup. And then berserkers can just choose whether to protect themselves with save vs mental or decide not bother, and at that point, we have deep, multi-tiered gameplay that requires placing actual consideration into gear choices. A ranger is a hybrid class, not a pure fighter. that's why they have herb (its basically a healing and cure disease spell). They have a lower max hp too. They have like, paladin hp. Is a ranger going to wear mental break just to try tame, vs a berserker, with that hp and no weapon ward / prot shield kind of shit?

I think you might be hung up on this because tame was dumb and always worked before. If we do that again, it'll be a calm spell, not a silly gib like it was. It'll be concerning but probably a bit crap in practice, you could save berserk before your rage for big save vs mental protection from it. (That's a fourth level of countering) You know, the very fact that I can actually say that tells me that there's bound to be player skill involvement.

[Faelon]

The problem with hybrids like dark knights/paladins/rangers is that they don't just have one skill that defines them. They have a whole set of skills. Berserkers do have just a skill that really defines them. Rage. I had assumed it was supposed to be that way, considering the class itself.

[Davairus]

I want to check if we've done it properly, but if you do stack mania/rage then what I *intended* was there would be an exhaustion affect when the rage wears off. Those tables eventually get turned naturally, so unless youre unable to evade every bodyslam for some reason, you should be getting the opportunity to return fire. AS far as tame/calm/whatever else goes, it would only be accelerating this process, and situationally a berserker shouldnt be allowing you to even do that to him... he should modify his play style accordingly. Why would anyone want it to be just mania/rage/stomp vs every situation..? cf. berserker starts w/ just mania, rangers notices the dual wield and says ok bow, berserker pulls quick berserk/rage combo, ranger pulls back and tries to herb.. reset. mistakes can be made, bodyslams can land. ranger can notice the berserker forgot his berserk, use the tame, start winning, berserker swaps to shield, ranger swaps to dual wield, berserker pulls a clutch rage into shield smashing dual wield and starts bodyslamming away.. lots of possibilities, two completely different choices on the berserker part and the ranger at any time can maybe land a lucky dirt that wont last long enough to be fight-ending.


If you guys don't like the unlaggable raged zerker that much, we can try rolling out the death ward idea instead. There are plenty other options. I just thought it might've been unique and fun to feel like a mindless zombie that nothing can stop. It wasn't my original idea for fixing that overhead crush gimpage. Really, though, make no bones about it, my goal is to do enough to make people afraid of rage, turning them into a frankenstein like monster made sense

Wouldnt mind also adding an innate spell resistance onto mania. Its supposed to eventually catch up with you on your mv, i.e. so that you tire out and can't do that anymore. I'm just waiting for you guys to catch up and notice that the regeneration loss is somewhat shitty. So far only Lorne is on board with this, which has been the most surprising thing for me, but there was a pretty bad infuriate bug for a while.

It would be cool if we could maybe collectively be less defensive about my changes and be a little more cool-headed. Things will turn out ok.

[m1coftw]

Fire serkers need a new racial legacy, Wang Attack, same as slith tail attack, but you know...

[Ergorion]

Are you kidding me? Berserkers have all the combat skills warriors do except maybe overhead. Barrage and sideswipe and hobble. Rangers don't get that shit. Rangers have dirt kick and disarm. Mania also makes unraged fighting that much more effective.

[m1coftw]

Rangors don't have any lag skills either, except for never working wounding shot that got gimped millenias ago!

[Andrael]

Also, its not a rage/mania/berserk... if the berserker is under rage and mania, they can't be calmed. If it is just mania, or just rage, they can. And calm/broken spirit/tame(?) would do the same effect, no rage, no mania, no berserk, no warcry as well as removing the effects of any should they land. Its been tested, GORON TESTED IT! That's how some people know.

Unless you changed it to where the berserker needs to do mania/rage/berserk to be immune to the 'calm' effects, mania and rage is all it needs to prevent it. And any class that could prevent it, would be too squishy to deal with that nonsense and would probably just get chased around and screwed over.

[Faelon]

[quote]Are you kidding me? Berserkers have all the combat skills warriors do except maybe overhead. Barrage and sideswipe and hobble. Rangers don't get that shit. Rangers have dirt kick and disarm. Mania also makes unraged fighting that much more effective[/quote]


What?

Try whips, staff and bow.

Two Pets

Herb

Any bow skill you'd like to name.

Blind fighting

And the last GREATEST ability that has yet to be named by anybody. Camo. Seriously? That's an instant escape route.

Hobble, sideswipe, barrage, overhead are really the only skills that rangers don't have that warriors do have.

[m1coftw]

Hobble is now the only real flee and die lag skill, combined with bodyslams and uber crazy DPS, serkers are most adept class to rack up kills when it comes to fighter classes. Rangers have limp dick shot and warrior have hobble/bash while getting outdpsed still.

[Nycticora]

If rangers were underpowered I would expect to be seeing threads by Ozaru saying so.

[m1coftw]

Dude, you can see that rangers are underpowered simply by Ozaru playing something else than beast ranger.