Hi, paladins are way too buff.

[LABruinCub]

Normally I appreciate the balance with AR, as I compared it to SF3. However, after doing a bit of fighting with some palis, I have come to the conclusion that paladins are a bit too unbalanced. They are too close to clerics, and clerics have been taken out for balance issues, even back in the days when AR was completely unbalanced (the irony).

The combat skills on AR are carefully balanced, so that it is a rock-paper-scissors deal when you fight other classes. One technique that works on warriors won't work on mages, and so forth. I just wanted to break down why I think paladins, not to mention Knights, have it a bit too good.

Skillsets
With AR, the class you play has its strengths and weaknesses.

Rouges get high damage output and initial strike most of the time. They also get stealth. However, they have few to no spells, and the spells they do have incur a large stat penalty or time penalty. Warriors have the hp and defenses to outlast and retaliate on them. Mages are vuln to rouges, but if they survive, their spellset can give back good retribution.

Warriors get high damage output, at least 3 defenses and the most effective combat and lag skills. However, they are balanced because they lack the element of surprise (rangers have to stay in the forest), they lack detects for a reason, and they have little to no healing spells, and the spells they do have incur time penalties. So, to fight a warrior, you gotta outlast them. Rouges do high damage and have a monster initial strike, enough to wear them down and finish them. Mages can rock warriors when spelled up and ready.

Mages get all the best spells in the game. Offensive mages lack healing spells or have little defense and hp, but can make up in high damage output. Rouges can rock these if they get the initial hit, but if they get caught, they can be finished quickly. Defensive mages lack the high damage output, but man can they survive... like cockroaches (my unbias writing is starting to decay) through anything, even nuclear winters. But hey, they shouldn't be able to kill you that easily as well.

Hybrids. They are a problem to AR's tri-formula of balance. If every class branch has its strength and weaknesses, and are balanced with other classes in a rock-paper-scissors way, then hybrids are that one-finger-tnt that "blows up all the other rock-paper-scissor combos for the automatic win" (yes, back to grade school). Two hybrids in the game, dkns and paladins. Dkns have been addressed, and rightfully so. Their skills have been toned down, which is a good thing. If you want balance and you want to include hybrids, they shouldn't be strong in both combined skillsets, but rather mediocre in each of them, and hopefully the sum of the two skillsets will make them even with other classes.

Paladins haven't been addressed, and I personally think they should, but on the back-burner, I know the IMMs have a lot on their plate. Anyways, I will just put this out now in case sometime in the future when you guys are tweaking, you can poke around this topic for ideas. Paladins get warrior skills in offense with things like third attack and 3 defenses and healer skills in defense like cure and sanc. The only problem I have with this hybrid is that sanc for paladins tips the scale from being mediocre in both skillsets to really good in the mage set and scary in the warrior set. In the warrior set, paladins lack lag skills. This stops everyone from making paladins instead of warriors. In the mage set, paladins have defensive spells and wrath. They have sanc and cures. Combined with the offense and defense of warriors, they can outlast rouges and other combat types and defend against the high damage output of mages and still have the power to retaliate against both classes either physically or magically (wrath). I won't even get into stallions. Why should paladins have both the one of the best magic spells in offense and defense in the form of wrath and sanc? Mages that do have this have low hp and few defenses to counterbalance. But paladins are also given warrior's physical abilities to hit hard and defend well. 3 defenses is what separates warriors from mages and rouges, no other class type has 3 defenses. Sanc is usually only given to defensive mages. Mages with high damage potential like necros and ills are not given sanc. Invokers that do medium damage get sanc but no cures. But paladins get wrath, sanc and cure in addition to having the best warrior skills. Just looking at the balance of the classes, something has to give in order to make paladins mediocre in both the warrior and cleric aspect so that the sum is level with other classes. Take away wrath, sanc or cure from the spellset, or 3rd attack or one defense from the skillset to regulate like other classes. Otherwise, it just isn't as balanced.

Ancillary arguments:
Paladins cannot lag - not enough of a balance. Sure they cannot lag you, but quitting is made harder, pathways are no longer branching out as much, tracking is made easier and now hiding is harder. It's only a matter of time before they find you.

Just wear the paladin down with hit and runs - wearing them down would be hard when they have sanc and you have to use purples. It's also hard when they have 3 defenses and physical attacks to hurt you just as much. And of course they have cure.

Make him use up his mana - ok, so he can no longer sanc, cure or wrath. But what about his physical offense and defense that you have to worry about (not to mention that you have probably used your own energy and health to wear him down), which rouges can only dream of.

Lag the paladin, don't let him wrath you - lagging attacks have been gimped upon engagment, because of the problem with gangbanging. However, it has the side effect that you will eat at least one wrath at the beginning of each battle.

Dirt the paladin - engagment problems, and you will still eat wraths. Plus, dirt is no longer a full tick.

Get svs aff eq to "neutralize" wrath - and do injures from the lack of hit/dam to his sanc so that he hopes you will continue to stay in the battle so he can beat you down physically instead of magically.

Neutralize his three defenses with the new combat skills - if you don't lag him, you will eat wraths. Plus, during the time you hobble him or barrage him, he's also still hitting you physically in return in addition to wrathing you. Then your purple runs out.

In sum, when you guys have time, please take a look at paladins. It's like fighting two full classes together instead of two halves. Thanks a lot.

[Quiet Wanderer]

Here it goes, I will try my hand at the first reply.
[soapbox] Paladins are easy to kill. I've played and fought against my fair share in the days I played. Paladins do get good spells yes, but spells are easy enough to get around. With save breaks, you can land a dispel fairly easily if you gamble right. Not a dispel casting class? Thats fine. Theres lag skills. Cleave. Hobble. Dirt. Myriad other skills to mess with a pally and keep him in the fight. The classic stand by skills work, just use them with strategy in mind. Paladins on AR are no more overpowered than any other class. If you have a shaman, especially one with a good mental saves break, they are easy. Dispel, blashphemy, (insert afflcitive/mals here). Dead pally. Paladins can be hard to kill, but so can gnome warriors in the right hands. (Garbon, as was brought up ins Sirephs deletion post, is a great example). It all comes down to knowing the way a class operates, and throwing a wrench in that system. Best way I found to defend against or fight a class, make a few of that class yourself, different race combos. Rank them up during surges or such, and try some PK. Once you figure out strategies that work, make sure they don't get used on you. All I say is, any class is over-powered in the right hands, and under-powered in the wrong hands, or against someone who knows the class better. Live and learn. Sometimes you also run into that rare players thats just better than you, and cna beat you too, no matter what you do. Get up, re-eq and go at it again. [/soapbox]


~~EDIT:~~
A lot fo the points you mentioned will pop up in some ways, Those don't make the class overpowered. They emphasize brain > brawn. Any class has those points. Try going against a counterbalanced ninja with a paladin. It gets fun.

[Phostan]

I could argue this, because the other guy is right when he says paladins are overpowered. They are, overpowered. I'm not worried about it, the fact is obvious, and known of by all. I'm sure the Imms will get around to balancing paladins out. As you can see, they tweaked warrior classes and rogue classes already, and have done some minor changes, such as weapon sets to mages, and so forth, I imagine more changes to mages and priests are next, followed by some changes to hybrids possibly. Having patience is all you can do right now. That, and gangbang paladins if you can't take them one on one.(I know I can't)

[Louis]

took a moment to read your post in entirety. i have to say i found your analogy of where you say "you feel like you're fighting more than just two halves" to be interesting.

i've played a paladin before and a counterbalanced ninja. i think the best way to defeat a knowledgeable paladin is with an illusionist or dark-knight + onyanth + killer timing. used to think paladins should rock (esp elf palis) because of their high xp gap, but then again fire berzerkers have almost as high of a gap too.

[LABruinCub]

Yup Louis, you summed up my whole essay in a sentence. It really is no longer fighting two halves, but rather two whole classes together. =)

[Davairus]

Paladins dont have these:

dirt
bash
trip
blind fighting
whip
flail
spear
axe
dagger
bow
point blank
volley (javelins)
hobble
sideswipe
overhead
windmill cleave
offhand disarm
barrage
concentration

Or these:

dispel magic
locate object
word of recall
fly
protective shield
weapon ward
haggle
a proper trance
scrolls
faerie fire
faerie fog
hardcore mals/defence spells like barrier/divine ret/spirit shield

Making the conclusion that theyre two ENTIRE classes put together, seem pretty weird. Nevermind more than that.

edit: I'm glad I'm finally not the only person who thinks theyre gay though. Especially dwarf ones.

[LABruinCub]

Yeah Dav, I didn't literally mean they had all the skills of either class. But they do have some of the best or defining class skills from both classes. Remember the red mage from Final Fantasy? He would only have the 2nd best or 3rd best skillset from his warrior side and his mage side. Only the black mage could use fire4 or the warrior could have the best defense. But it was the diversity of skills and attacks that made the red mage on par with the specialized classes. Three defenses is one of the defining skillset of a warrior class, so should a paladin really have it if he also has sanc, cure and wrath? He may lack other skills from each class, but the skills that he does have certainty aren't secondary skills. Really tho, if the paladin didn't have one of the big three, wrath, sanc or cure, I could then see how much more balanced it would be.

And yeah, that makes two of us who thinks paladins are kinda fruity, haha.

[Mental Patient-101]

Wanna kill a paladin? Make an invoker...

[LABruinCub]

Haha, I shouldn't have to make an invoker just to kill a paladin... because that would imply that there is an inherent imbalance that cannot be fixed in game unless I do something externally like completely change classes...

[Mental Patient-101]

Sorry, I was just being an ass...

[E-ant]

I don't really see how a solo invoker can kill a 50 paladin, sorry.

edit: Especially dwarf ones.

[Amdorin]

Ask Grunky when he had to take down the Knight guardian to get his item back.

[Phostan]

Was there an actual paladin on to fight him? Did that paladin get to the cabal in time to try and stop Grunky? Did they even fight, since Grunky enchants for every single Knight, or did the Knight just let him take the item back? Questions one must ask.

[Amdorin]

You're taking what I said the wrong way. The Knight guardian is basically a paladin, and you know how you have to tank him. I'm talking about the anti-paladin spell that invokers have, that's all. No one trying to assult your character or nothing.

[Trillian]

... no mob = player.

[Louis]

consider the have mals too : curse and firebreath land easily on low saves

[LABruinCub]

The Knight guardian does chase when it's winning, and doesn't cure when it's losing, so it cannot be compared to a real player.

Louis brought up a good point I forgot to mention. Mal casters must stay in battle to keep casting their spells over and over until they land. If they have sanc, they do not have 3 defenses (shamans). If they have 3 defenses, they do not have sanc (dkns). Palis are the only mal casters with sanc and 3 defenses, so they last longer in battle... long enough to repeatedly cast their spells until it lands.

[Amdorin]

I was explaining that Invokers have [sarcasm with spirit fingers]"mystical powers"[/sarcasm] against pallie's most vengeful attacking spell.

[Davairus]

[divsky]

A red mage could physically outdamage a warrior in FF1 by using FAST and TMPR, more than doubling his damage output. And thats some good damage since he can use most of the best weapons in the game. Who needs the NUKE spell when you´ve got that? The INVS spell could make him practically impossible to hit while FOG reduced the damage he did take. And then on top of that you´ve got the third level CURE spell and a full selection of affect spells like SLEP, HOLD, RUSE, LOCK. Fuck, red mages were hardcore insane in FF1. That is, compared to any other class in a 1vs1 fight, which never happens in FF1 because.. well, you´ve got a group of 4 fighting against ogres. Don´t even try to tell me that a red mage isn´t that strong because he doesn´t have the highest level spells.