Skills/spells knowledge

[Sebryn]

This probably could've been posted in the 'Can use a helping hand w/ immersion' thread, but I wanted to make sure it got the attention that I think it deserves.

One of the biggest things that bugs the crap out of me is when characters tell others which skills and spells to use, as though they know them. Clerics telling warrior-types to "use XXX weapon type/combat style," or warriors telling their mage groupmates to "use XXX spell." This might not seem like a big deal on the surface, and most people probably take it in stride and accept it as part of the way the game's played. However, to me it's a big roleplay/immersion stumbling block.

Berserkers shouldn't know what rank a necromancer is able to 'acid blast,' illusionists shouldn't know the difference in a monk's stances, etc.; the fact that it does come up so often is frustrating, and while people use it as a way to get through their ranking or equipment/Winter runs more quickly (especially with less-experienced players in their groups), it's just another exploit of OOC knowledge.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to tell their groupmates to use skills or spells that they've obviously seen used (or had used on them); telling your thief groupmate to "dirt kick instead of circle stab" can be something that's been seen before. The ones that get me are the "in 2 ranks you'll get XXX, so use that." Unless you're the same class as another character, you should have no damned idea what their skill/spell progressions are. And the "my brother/mother/father/cousin/dog/teacher's friend's sister was a member of that guild and taught me all about them" excuses are lame, so don't try and use that as an excuse.

I'm not sure what can/should be done about this, but it's been something that's bugged me for the longest time. Any ideas/suggestions would be nice, even if you disagree with me and believe that telling someone what skills/spells they're going to receive at any given rank should be considered "acceptable."

Fire away.

[marsd]

This is a very ethical situation.... and cannot be directly enforced. No way is there anything to enforce this type of immersion... totally based on the morals of the player.

But I can't say "no" without trying to give a yes.. players can be "educated" into complete IC Roleplaying. It can be made mandatory with every new character going into mudschool.

Rather than once you create you get bam smacked into the middle earth of mud-school, there could be a "guided path" before the player is deemed immersed enough to be able to stay in character, then he'll be transported into where they are spawned into currently or wherever it will be.

[Louis]

sorry but i have to disagree

the more you know, the more 'knowledgeable' you are about the realms so i dont see the problem

besides how are you not gonna help a curious newbie? i mean we have evil imms helping out noobs too, and we're not gonna take that out..

[Rezakhan]

Think of it this way--there will always be characters who are more 'knowledgeable' than they should be for the point they are at in their life. For example, a level 1 that knows places to rank--how does someone who supposedly just entered Thera know where to go?
Instead of expecting that every single person re-learn all of Thera with each new character, we just accept that some characters are 'well-learned' or 'know a lot of the realms'. How you want to reconcile that in your own mind is up to you--maybe tell yourself they must have studied the history of the lands, they listened to legends of Thera in their own lands, etc. By the same token, it would make sense that someone who is well-learned in the ways of Thera--be they warrior, monk, ninja, whatever--would know about the other classes he would encounter. Thus, to me it does not seem that knowledge of other classes skills/spells necessarily presents a problem for immersion.

[Sebryn]

I agree that knowing things like where to rank, and even the skills and spells that other classes receive should be considered "common knowledge" to a degree - after all, the game becomes non-functional if you're expected to "start from scratch" every time.

Specifically, I don't think that knowing ranks at which skills and spells are gained is necessary.

[Davairus]

Low rank mages and thieves will get bossed around by warriors because they're easily replaced by a better groupmate. Why wouldnt a warrior tell a thief to use dirt kick (one of a warrior's skills) instead of his shitty-looking circle stabs anyway? High rank shamans will be bossing warriors around because high rank groups are much less effective without the almighty cure critical. They're the backbone of their group.

Nobody bosses necromancers around because theyre worthless groupmates, and nobody even says a word if they just AFK in goblin eq except to eat ducks.

In the log you are talking about, they already discussed what they were going to do long beforehand, repeatedly, for about 8 pages of unshown talking, and the warrior is just quickly last minute reminding him of everything. Uh, and they're the same cabal so obviously they'll need to pool whatever knowledge they have to work best as a team, seeing as pretending to be oblivious against REAL people = dead and full loot for both, and probably multikills thereafter.

[obvious rp reason]
My character is in the same cabal as his character and we've rehearsed the interaction of our skills and spells together while we were ranking and getting eq so much that now we both know what the other guy uses and when, for example hellstreaming mobs with equipment for fast inefficient kills, and using fireball against groups of them.
[/obvious rp reason]

Lets not use "rp" as a lame reason to make our cabal members purposely fight stupid. They're bad enough as it is.

[divsky]

The guilds are very large, very structured rank-based organizations that practically run Thera. For the more knowledgable adventurers in Thera I'd imagine having a good idea at which skills each guild gets and around what rank would not be too hard to imagine.

However, the common skills like dirt kick or acid blast. Uh, yeah. Of course we're going to know that thieves get dirt kick or a paladin can use swords because anyone who lives in Thera sees them using those skills all the time. That's not even semi-obscure, stuff like that should be common knowledge.

A lot of this goes back to the old common knowledge debate. Do we have to discover ICly where the purple potions are with each character? No, that's retarded. So we also shouldn't have to relearn the basic knowledge of which classes get what skills. C'mon people, our characters are professional adventurers, and rise above the rabble like the farmers in Clover as the most powerful fighters in all of Thera. They're the best of the best. Of course they'll know about how other classes fight.

And try thinking about it this way. I'm an electronics technician on a submarine, but just in the year I've been attached to a submarine I've learned a lot about the machinist mate's jobs. I can do oxygen bleeds, pump san tanks, move water on the boat, burn oxygen candles, line up the ventilation system. And my Chief, also an electronics technician, can sign off qualifications for mechanical systems for new machinist mates, even though he isn't one, just because he's been around long enough that he has an in-depth knowledge of how those systems work. Consider that, and then remember we're just talking about a warrior knowing -of- what skills a thief would have. I don't think there's much of a difference there.

[Sebryn]

[Davairus]

There's only a handful of situations that I believe this issue really applies to.

In the past, players learned what levels invokers get sanctuary so they didn't end up grouping with an invoker without the sanctuary spell, instead of one that actually did. An invoker without sanctuary is picked out of either desperation or lack of available thirds, and would eventually be hurried to practice sanctuary as soon as possible to make up for him being a sub-standard third that runs out of mana halfway through a round and resorts to occasional mauls. So when you felt frustrated about them telling you that you need to practice sanctuary NOW, you'd need to consider how frustrated you have made THEM by being a worthless groupmate until that point. This is especially true for vets, who have been through the ranks (obviously, repeatedly) before and just want to get it over with as soon as possible. Heh, is the group supposed to just keep on ranking without sanctuary until the invoker decides to announce he can train it?

Its fair to say that most peeps know invokers getting sanctuary at 35. I doubt you'd see that same "problem" with necromancers that are lacking the art of making stone golems, or in fact most of the other skills and spells out there. A few noteable exceptions are dual parry, hellstream, divine ret, haste.. parties will deliberately hire you FOR those skills.

[Mendek]

Maybe not haste.

[divsky]

gayest thread. Ever