dwarf

[raginggnome]

has anyone noticed how hard it is to roll a dwarf, I haev gmud and no rolling script and I cannot get over 90, except once and I was pissed of and rapidly hitting n and enter... And missed it. And it was a 91.

[Mandor]

yes, there seems to be penalties or something for rolling anything other than human. I've found it much more difficult rolling any other race than human.

[Adebaldi]

max rolls are race(/class?) dependant. For example a max roll for elf mage is around 93 or 94 while fire giant is 88 I think. What you need to do is when you first start rolling a new char, spam n around 20 times and add up best stats to see what the max roll is.

Also if you are tyring to get a max roll or max -1 then you do really need a statroller. Once it took me more than 40000 tries to get max.

[Mandor]

[Davairus]

There are no "difficult" races to roll. The range of total stats rolled is always from (max roll) to (max roll-10). Each stat is rolled perfect and then has a chance to be dropped, tested twice, so that (max roll) is very rare and the range (max-6) to (max-4) is extremely commonly rolled. Neither of which would be a worthless character for a newbie, btw. (max-2) is easily hand rolled. Double-trains are also granted at level 1 for stats, to help races like dwarf and elf to get their con/int up, and in some cases, make (max-2) effectively a perfect roll for someone who has decided to train stats to max.

I just tested for 100 rolls, and I handrolled a dwarf warrior 90 average about every 24 rolls, which is -3 max. 91 came after 87 rolls, which is a -2 max. The stats I rolled were "20 16 18 16 21" which allows me to use double trains to have my con maxed at level 1 and, since my base wis enough for 3 pracs, I can also max str. Strength is a stat I would have trained to max anyway, with wis left to eq, so this roll is as good for me as a -1 from max. Therefore it took me less than 2 minutes to hit mudschool with a -1 max dwarf warrior. The conclusion immediately follows that newbies are not "gimped" at all by having to roll stats. If they read the instructions during the process, its an easily exploitable system. Its the people that have the urge to max roll that are "gimped", because they will have to sit there for average of three days, long enough for them to start out dozens of levels behind and vastly out-equipped by my 2 minute dwarf warrior to which their extra 10 hp amounts, at the most, to lasting a mere one extra hit in a battle with a much better equipped opponent.

[Mandor]

perhaps he is referring to the 89-91 mean average for humans compared to say, the 82-84 mean average of fire giants for example.

[Slade]

Max roll issues aren't a big deal ~ some take longer than others, but either way bug your local Signaporean for a zmud roller, let it sit there for some hours while you do something else.

What you should instead be annoyed with is combos where you max roll, spend 3 full double trains, and are still stat deficient. Gnomes, dwarves, some elves and drows, etc. Sometimes its really bad like elf warrior, you spend 3 double trains and are still behind like 3 or more stats. Gross.

[Davairus]

[Mandor]

[Slade]

^ Max stats aren't the only way a character is balanced.. giants may have low stats but you wouldn't want to fight a good one with good equipment, not even as something with higher stats like say an elf warrior. There are a lot of things that go into race balance. What I was referring to what more the fact that its annoying to already be in stat penalties from the get go. This forces you to wear crap like mithril and what not to balance from the beginning. Other combos won't have to start doing that until they wear those beef 3-4 hit/dam items. Effectively you lose some hit/dam because of this. Some combos thats arguably OK (dwarf, gnome, etc), others just frustrating, and in some cases mind boggling if its bad enough and the combo isn't all that.

[Mandor]

are you absolutely certain about there being no penalties? its a hell of a lot harder rolling drow dk than drow ill.

with drow dk I get down to 82 sometimes, and it looks like 84 is the median, havent seen above 91 yet. 90 comes about once on an average of 300 rolls.

drow ill I get down to 84 lowest, 90s are commonplace, Ive even once seen a 94.

100 rolls drow ill.
4 92s, a good number 90s and many 88s, nothing below 84.
next test.
100 rolls drow dk.
many 83s, its a toss up between 83,84, and 87 being the most often occuring number, with 1 91, got down to 82 multiple times.
next test.
100 rolls drow ill.
first roll given to me a 90.. 88,87,89 most common numbers, 90+ also common. nothing below 84, no 82s at all.
so.. next test
drow dk.
first roll given 84, got some 82s, most rolls are 83-86, one 90, not one above 90.
next test, drow ill.
first roll given, 87, currently looking at 86-88 being the most common, many 90s and a few 91+, all high numbers.

Im going to guess as to the next test, lets see if I can do it blindly.
I think, Ill get 1 82, most will be 84 and one 90, maybe a 91.

drow dk, last test.
first roll, 86. easily found a number of 82s, most common number appears to be 84-86. more 82s, a single 90.



Let me stress this. this is consecutive one char after another testing, deleting, and starting over right after. if you'll notice my point, one combo seems a lot better at rolling than another. whats the probability that switching only one variable, the class, that this pattern emerge purely coincidentally at the same time? I think maybe 1 in a quadrillion?

basically Im calling shenanigans.

try it for yourself, all you have to do is spam and watch the numbers fly by, switch class and do it again. you'll see a marked difference. anyone here can.

eh, got curious after failing to get a good or ANY 92s, 1 90, for a drowdk, so I switch back to ill for one more test. screen flooded with 87-89, with many sprinklings of 90-91 and some 92s.. not a single 83 or lower.

I knew It wasnt jsut me

[MrCarb]

It's shenanigans. Does everybody have a broom?

I've always thought there were class specific bonuses to stat rolling, like dex for rogues, as I've found it much easier to roll a drow thief than a dk (perhaps some kind of intelligence bonus for mages accounts for your findings). Someone else mentioned that it was difficult to roll an elf warrior, which would make sense if strength and consitution came easiest in that particular rolling. In the absense of formal empiricism, however, there remains the possibility that I've imagined it. Oh, and whoever said rolling humans was easy, try an avian.

[Mandor]

[Davairus]

You'll get a higher average number when rolling a drow ill because they actually have a better max-roll than drow dk does.

[Mahkan]

how do they have a better max?

[Mandor]

[Davairus]

It is class-based, and its easy to tell how the roll falls. Just look at whatever prime stat humans get . e.g. human dk = 21 str, human ill = 21 int. That means that drows ills get the int roll bonus, but drow dks cap at 18 str so their overall roll will be lower. Probably by 2 points

There are more factors involved in race balance than just whatever the max rolled stats are.