Knights and imprison

[Ergorion]

Can't post replies in the bugs so going to discuss here.

Completely false that other powers work similarly to the current setup of Knight imprison while they have an item. The way it stands now, Knight imprison is vastly superior to either ensnare or abduct because Knights can imprison ANY evil regardless of whether or not they are anathema.

Breaking it down now:

Knight: If they have your item, you have to walk through their confine zone (Valour) to get it. So the normal drawback of imprison (in that you avoid Valour, is mitigated). Imprison lasts what 5, 6 hours? That's just a couple hours shy of confine. They can imprison any evil without detriment to themselves even if they are not anathema (so all Legions in an attempt to retrieve are automatically opening themselves up to an imprison).

Legion: They can abduct anywhere. That's awesome. But if you are not contracted, they eat massive damage trying to abduct that completely annuls the benefit of abducting the target. Legion abduct is 1 or 2 hours at most. Hardly a death sentence.

Justice: They hardly ever capture items anyway. Again, you have to be WANTED in order for ensnare to work. Sure, I guess if you get wanted and you're in a cabal and Justice has your item, you're open to auto-ensnare but that's a lot of ifs.

Keepers: no confine ability.

Summary: Knights can buttfuck any Legion and/or evil Justice attempting to retrieve their item at any time. Legions can sort of buttfuck contracted individuals who come to retrieve their item. Justices can buttfuck wanted individuals who come to retrieve their item but this is a rare occurrence.

[Olyn]

Your statement about the Legion power is incorrect. It works at full strength when they have their victim's item capped.

Justice will be evaluated since no WANTED flag for taking their item is new.

Keepers cannot be confined in any way if they are at war with that cabal.

[Ergorion]

I guess I'm showing my age then about Legion. But still, if full strength is a 1 or 2 hour confine, it doesn't compare. If it's more, I need to roll me a Legion.

[Mr. Forgotten]

Knights get fucked up if they fail imprisonment. Happened plenty of times to me when I had Veridon.

[Olyn]

If anything, I'd say this is an incentive for Knights to cap items and for other cabals to keep theirs defended.

I'll look into the duration for Knights, but the dungeon is a slightly larger area than Legion rift. Nothing has changed here besides the item capping process. Knights were whining that their power was was too limited in the past because it only worked in Valour.

[Xenyar]

It's pretty easy to stay alive when you're imprisoned. Completely avoid combat as much as possible from the very beginning of the confinement, and run. When Knight walks in, just run again. If you get attacked, flee instantly and keep on ruinning until confine time is up. Too easy, I believe. I can't remember the last time I was killed while imprisoned.

Abduct>Imprison

[Ergorion]

I've got to disagree with Xenyar under the current mechanics. A Legion has to retrieve his/her item. That means if a Knight is present to defend, they are putting themselves at risk of a 5-6 hour confinement situation every time they enter the city.

Two ticks is nothing. You also played a super decked ranger when you were abducting people. That's possibly the best combination of dps and defenses in the game which makes it super effective in a 2 hour rift situation.

[Esivole]

It might just be due to the new way cabal warfare works and maybe it should be looked at. I will say that imprison was basically useless in the past, imho. The only reason it now became super useful is due to cabal items being easier to get. Not sure how many anathema are running around these days, but having a skill you can only use in 1% of the game area and only on 1% of its base is pretty damned narrow. (i.e. anathema in valour) It definitely needed something beyond that.

[Kato]

The problem I see here is that the current manifestation of imprison is a noobstomper. New caballed evils in Legion / Justice will get repeatedly destroyed by this, to a degree we wouldn't see with a 2-tick abduct. Ensnare is by far the best cabal confine, but it's also most limited in its use (only against WANTED, and taking a flag is already pretty awful)

[Olyn]

I like to think that getting surprised by something one time is enough to know to prepare for it in the future. There's a lot of scenarios where you could trick the knight into disadvantage here. A knight busy in the dungeon is a knight who can't defend from a second attacker. It also prevents the knight from using any allies he might have.

Your opinions so far make it sound like you want this to be more like abduct with smaller area and shorter duration. I'm not sure I like that.

[Ergorion]

I don't know what the solution is, but I think that the current imprison setup is a problem.

Sure, a noob might get surprised by being imprisoned the first time and get curb-stomped. But the fact of the matter is, even if they know that the Knight is going to imprison them upon entering Valour, they are powerless to prevent it from happening.

And in the situations where it would be a detriment use imprison, Knights have the luxury of not being forced to use that skill.

How about this for a potential solution: imprison would only work against top tier caballed opponents as defined by cabal rank. So Forskan thru Dreadlord/Overlord (I can't remember which one is which). This way the n00b-ish underlings and minions don't get fucked repeatedly.

[Ergorion]

Basically, I'm proposing reigning in the scope of imprison. Right now it is an extremely broad and powerful skill. So finding some middle-ground where it's not the hyper-specific imprison of old; but also does not screw over newer players to cabal warfare.

Uncaballed evils should still be able to get romped by it because they're making the choice to jump in and can avoid Valour if they want to.

[Kato]

I don't see how there's a way to prepare for imprison. If a Knight has good gear or a class advantage (invoker vs warrior for example), this lets him force a confinement situation with ~8 rooms for 5-6 ticks, which will guarantee a win every time. And you can't avoid it if they have a cabal item. Abduct you can avoid by cursing yourself and it's only 2 ticks, ensnare you can position well so as not to be caught in a small area. Imprison is kinda out of line with the others

[Xenyar]

1.)Item retrieval means you are fighting the guardian, who dispels and cast lightning bolt, etc... and the Knight, or Knights that is defending their cabal. Not to mention when you do try to flee, you have the chance to flee into the cabal, having to go back through the guardian and Knight/Knights... just to have a chance to flee back into the cabal again.

2.)Attempt to retrieve cabal item and Knight imprisons you. You are not fighting the guardian thats trying to dispel and so on... you are not risking the flee back into the cabal over and over, eating easy ass murders from the Knight...and as Olyn stated, you are now fighting just one Knight.

Its a "pick your poison" type deal.

Imo...Imprison me, that's less tracking I will have to do.

[Dogran]

First off, not everyone gets imprison. Second, its double edged, i like imprison, but i have been killed many times by imprisoning someone and then screwing up in confines, and losing all my gear because you cannot get back to the area to grab your gear. Lastly i havent seen anyone get imprisoned over and over and not figure out they can survive by refusing to fight.