Protection spell

[Kato]

I've been ruminating on this for a couple years, really since Mkatos. I would love to hear some feedback from both other players and imms.

Protection is a huge amount of reduction (in the ballpark of 20%) and I am starting to think that this is interfering with class balance in a meaningful way. Once upon a time, every class had the option to have protection, whether through spells or scrolls of potions -- this was removed half a decade ago, and since then it's only been available to clerics and hybrids.

Let's think about how this impacts each of the four classes, starting with hybrids:

Paladins - Paladins are in a pretty strong place right now. They're mostly fighting evils, and are able to dish out a ton of damage with errantry and divine sac while taking a fair bit less punishment than other classes due to protection. They've got about the same damage-per-round potential as DKs, but have pimp heals and defensive spells (bless, virtuous) instead of lag skills. Maybe they're perfectly balanced vs evils, but if they are that means on the occasions they do have to fight neutrals, they're pretty gimpy. 20% is a big margin to have to overcome.

Dark-knights - They don't spend all their time fighting opposite-align, so there's even more of a problem here. If DKs are balanced for same-align combat, then it's going to be VERY hard for a good-aligned fighter or rogue or mage class to outdamage them. A little boost would fit in with lore and intention, so something smaller like a more powerful presence effect would be more appropriate than 20% DR.

Clerics - Having played a cleric pretty extensively, I can say that with decent AC and the protection spell, there's really nothing an opposite-align fighter class can do. Both healers and shamans are even stronger now than they were a year ago, since the only changes have been buffs. Both classes have gotten new choices for offense/defense/utility from boons, and haven't lost anything. It's hard enough for a neutral to kill one of these guys - I really don't think they need 20% more effective hp.

I think it would make all these classes more interesting and fit better with the current PK atmosphere. Nobody likes it when certain classes (DKs and paladins especially right now) are able to faceroll you so easily just because of align choices. Looking forward to hearing what you all think!

[Mikoos]

I've been bitching about protection/ac for a while now, and protection is definitely the key to making that combo over the top. it works against almost all opponents(except of course opposite aligned) doesn't require much strategy or tactics..other than stock piling AC for a synergy affect. in short, I hate it.

[Davairus]

tldr
so youre saying remove protection? no
thats uncreative

[Ergorion]

I don't think he's saying remove protection. That's a simple-minded and uncreative response to his point.

He's saying that protection seems to be the cause of some pretty significant imbalances and that it's worth looking into ways to make it more balanced.

Also, this thread is clearly off topic for this subforum and belongs in the polls section.

[Kato]

I think it's appropriate in the battlefield. I just like polls, I reread my poll question and answers and they don't even make sense. But I really do think it's worth thinking about whether it is desirable for a fire giant to hit a paladin/healer and a storm giant to hit a do/shaman just as hard as a stone giant with 10-15 less damroll could

[Faelon]

-EDIT-

Why don't we post right when we wake up? Because the response doesn't match the original post!

[Davairus]

So I didnt get the point? OK. then wtf is it?

[Faelon]

Lol @davo -

I was starting to ask that question as well. Do you have a proposal for a fix?

[ottif]

maybe he's trying to say you guys don't consider all aspects of game balance (like burz used to do) when implementing fixes/changes/updates. DKS for example with all their new buffs under no circumstances need protection (unless they are fighting a storm giant berserker another op class). they can annihilate a paladin really easy and heal themselves the same way a paladin can if the pal tries to flee. this is a similar concept as summon imo, clearly all aspects of the game were not considered when summon was buffed.

[Olyn]

Summon was buffed? These aren't even coherent arguments.

[Davairus]

ottif you're right, I don't consider all aspects of game balance. Want to know why I don't? Because THERE IS TOO MANY ASPECTS OF GAME BALANCE. We would be paralyzed, unable to make any changes at all. Don't be a fool. Games are art, but game balance is a science. In science (p.s. incase you dont know, I have a degree in physics), one thing that is absolutely critical to be successful is to develop the ability to change your mind in light of new evidence. If a scientist cannot do that, he cannot adapt, he'd be stuck believing in newtons laws while everyone else is getting on with quantum mechanics. And that's true as well for balancing this game. So don't get mad just because I make a mistake and later changed my mind. If you think is possible to get every change right on the first go, I don't know what to tell you.

My development method, which is not original by any means, is PDCA. Go read about that, you'll understand everything better. And it will improve your life, just like it has improved this game in leaps and bounds .

I can tell you that certain past implementors were incapable of changing the plan even after it was obvious to everyone else playing the game that it was awful, these guys outright REMOVED monks, druids and psionicists instead of seeing potential to improve these classes, and left others in complete ruin. I'm not pointing fingers at particular people but I think you might want to take a look in a mirror and see if you aren't starting to sound like a broken record yourself. You might want to give some credit to the fact we have taken in over 1500 issues from players and fixed so many fucking things in just the last year. Every change I have made, even if it looks IMBA to you and maybe is IMBA in the short-term, is still an improvement - every single time.

A good rule of thumb is to not fuck with the basics that everything else has been built on, such as nerfing the damage reduction of purple potions down to 40% (guess whose idea that was), and maybe it was a stupid fucking idea to remove magenta potions by the same token

[Nycticora]

"I have a degree in physics" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8RM4ny4cRY