Cabal Balance Logs

[Ceridwel]

[Faelon]

Here's the problem with your entire argument.


Of course you don't know. Why would you? Someone is withdrawing funds and giving them away. If you honestly want a way to keep track of coins, make one. How hard is it to make a simple note function, in which the cabal bank sends a note each time there is a withdraw/deposit. I've actually wanted that for a while. It keeps track of players who don't deposit, or withdraw too much.

Besides which. It's an in game thing. If there is an issue with IN GAME things, lets figure out a way to solve the IN GAME thing, instead of freaking the FUCK OUT on someone, with a rule from 5 years ago that only the Imms really apparently know exists.

I've had a metric ton of executors and I had no god damn idea this was a rule. Remind me in the future, if I want to do something, to read every fucking forum post so you don't ban me from becoming a knight in the near future.

[Nycticora]

I don't think it's wrong for an imm to react this way. This is what you're putting on the line when you skirt the rules like this. It is true that I intentionally goad the Legion into trying things like this. This is the kind of shitstorm I want the Legion to make.

When you, as a player, get involved in this kind of horrendously evil act you should expect the Knight imm to get mad in ways that your character can't possibly comprehend.

Working As Intended

[Nycticora]

he just gave his exact reasons why he reacted in both ic and ooc ways what more do you want bro

[Arunore]

I don't think this was an intentional breach of skirting the rules. Everything was roleplayed out accordingly and it felt they were doing just that. Any enemy cabal would grovel at the idea of weakening their peers, especially in the good vs evil dilemma. While I understand how this is frowned upon, I sincerely doubt this was meant to harm anyone outside, and while you can get upset, you cannot blame the people involved for trying to do this. It would have happened sooner or later, and if they wanted it to be bad, they would have withdrew untraceable amounts until it was noticed and too late.

There has been a lack of Immortal-to-player interaction, especially on Nycticora's side, at least during the time I was Countess. It's amazing how much an Immortal can inspire the players simply by visiting them, or doing recho's for them, or putting their character into a small 6 vnum area of space and having the character wake up into a custom-built dream that is centered around the interactions or goals of that character. You just do not get anything close to that extent of interaction from the Immortals, save Vevier and Vanisse, who actually do contribute in this way.

You have a dozen stock areas with one liner room desc's, and have turned down people willing to slap full detail into the areas, because the second you feel it gets out of your control, you have to stick your bird chest out and talk about what you've done. Well what about what we've done? Do you think you have endured this journey alone? We appreciate all your hard work, but what is it worth without sustenance.

[Ceridwel]

Shitty room descriptions drive me nuts too. I'm already working on fixing those (Dragon Tower and Wyvern Tower already completed). Please log bugs for any you find need fixing so I can track the ones you guys want fixed.

Faelon you bring up an excellent point with the log of cabal bank activity. I logged a bug for that like 2 years ago and if I could implement it myself, I would. That still doesn't solve the issue of what a character does with the gold once they withdraw it though.

Your point of this being a no-no not being documented is also 100% valid. The problem here is since it is not one of the RULES we can't document it as such, so where do we put it? Maybe a CABAL BANK helpfile is needed. In fact yes, we definitely need one of those and I'll get it done asap.

[Nycticora]

a cabal bank helpfile is unnecessary

Knights won't steal from the cabal bank because it puts their allies at risk. Any knight who forsakes his allies is in danger of having the Knight imm flip out and murder him outright.

Warlords won't steal from the cabal bank because it's dishonorable. Any dishonorable warlord risks retaining the nomagic penalty after being kicked from the cabal and the cabal immortal might flip out and murder him outright.

Justices won't steal from the cabal bank because stealing in protected areas is against the law. Any justice who breaks the law is likely to be murdered outright by the Justice imm.

Legions won't steal from the cabal bank because they're afraid of the Forsaken. If they're not afraid of the Forsaken, they are the de-facto Forsaken, and it's not stealing.

[Vevier]

Those are all good points, Nyct, but I think the reason that Ceridwel is suggesting having a log is so that we can view questionable behavior and this becomes less of a get-away-free if no one sees you. You've described expected behavior, and if that's all we got from players, then you'd be right, a log wouldn't be necessary. For better or worse, that's not what we've been getting.

A cabal bank helpfile is a good thing to have because we have a history of extensive helpfiles, and if a newb comes along and some vet says "I'm making a deposit in the cabal bank" it's good to know that the newb can 'HELP CABAL BANK' and be rewarded with some information about it. I will very rarely veto the need for helpfiles.

I'm also in favor of a balance sheet for cabal banks, that would show the 10 or so most recent interactions. (This would need to sum multiple potion purchases by the same person within a tick or so to protect against losing information by someone spamming buy detect vs buy 10 detect.) Mostly I want this because nothing irks me more than reading notes that say nothing but "I deposited 40,000 gold, let's all work together to get funds up." The leader will know who is and isn't pulling their weight in the gold department and I won't have to read about it every other day. Also, being able to see that a knight withdrew 200k or however much, then defected to Legion lets the active knights KNOW what happened and retaliate in game. I can't speak for him in this matter, but it's possible Cer would be less livid about the matter if the knights (and other cabals) were empowered by what was available to them to get revenge for themselves. Without that log, you don't know theft vs if you just had some poor footman pull out 50 defenders over the course of a 5 hour fight against a Legion, which would be a more acceptable loss of that 200k gold.

Plus you've got a guy that's sitting right there handling the money, it totally fits my immersion that he's writing everything down. I'd be okay if he only shared with like Rank 3+ or something, though.

[xanthas]

not broke, dont fix

olyn, i'm shocked you've let this go on so long. i think a lock is in order so we can move onto some different drama

[ottif]

a log should have long since been implemented. you can't sit here and demand people RP then shame them ooc for the RP they choose. you give players a limit per day you can't shit on them for using it how they see fit. you can't say you "trust" players to not abuse something that imo is poorly designed. withdrawing gold is not on par with mass flagging by justices, etc. and shouldn't be treated like it. i can think of a couple different ways around this issue that has been coming up a lot apparently. for starters you could just set up a tab with the same limits per day with a specific command to use it at shopkeepers, you could even remove certain shops (knights vs darkhaven shops, legion vs valour shops, etc.) from the tab options. it would work a lot like that auto withdrawl did a few months ago, it could be automatic at cabal shops.


i think any in character reaction ceridwel had was well warranted. turning him into a chicken permanently would have been nice

[ewils03]

I'm with Mama Vev about the helpfile and was thinking Rank 3+ would be able to see the balance sheet of who's depositing/withdrawing before I read her same idea (would there be a way to tie it into the BALANCE command for those members privy to see it?). There are plenty of jobs and especially the military where there's a manual for literally everything. Knowledge is power and it's best passed to people in writing rather than word of mouth. Not only is it permanently there (which is updated or amended from time to time), but just going by word of mouth is like playing telephone.

The IC punishments Moira had were to be expected, but unless the player has a history of screwing over cabals, I don't think there's a reason to pull it OOC. That being said, it was good to see in the forums to let people really know what to expect in game when you sabotage your cabal and convert to the other side. I still think it was RP and not a personal vendetta against the Knights. But Moira, Olyn was right, the VIRTUES are there as a guideline of what to do in the absence of orders. Still, that would have been some fun RP to play out lol

[Ceridwel]

HELP CABAL BANK is now available.

[m1coftw]

Burn your crosses