Word of Recall

[Kato]

This is exactly the place to do that - this thread is a discussion about a possible change, and it is not personal in any way! You can get attention by just bringing up what has been bothering you, you don't need to do something drastic like delete for us to listen

[Ozaru]

This is where you should reign in your imm staff because to the casual player you have AN IMM saying he will not play the game because of a game play change. That is like a waiter saying I won't eat the steak here because they don't have grade A beef amazing. That is an opinion I would keep private lol.

I think what confuses a lot of the players here is we are purposely making changes to the game that could potentially drive people away in an effort to make it better. Unfortunately these changes cause "perceived" imbalance. Maybe you guys should test these changes before implementing them rather than test them on us. You guys are right the game was more fun 10 to 20 years ago and you want to know why? We played this game all day every day on weekends, summer, school break. I am sure everyone here knows how damn frustrating it is when you have a limited amount of time to play and a "perceived" imbalance ruins your fun.

If one guy says make a change I will leave that has a huge impact on a game that has 18 people at most playing. If we all said you know what fuck this game, I can't recall, I die to raged easy button zerkers in 10 seconds, thieves have an easy button ill just go play a different game.

You guys are travelling on slippery slope that this game may not recover from.

If you hate everything I post please just read this and answer my last 2 question.

How was mania tested before it was rolled out to the general public?
If it was tested, what feedback did you guys get?

[Ozaru]

For the record, I will always play this game no matter what you do it

[Faelon]

The last two questions shouldn't just negate the rest of what you said. Own all of it, or none of it.

Mania got nerfed because of all the irritation at it. It got nerfed HARD. Any current zerker could attest to that, easily.

Besides, whose budget are you talking about to get all the kinks out? Are you going to pay for it? Big game manufacturers, like the makers of Destiny, put stuff out ALL the time that is screwed up and their budget is in the millions, if not tens of millions of dollars just on testing. So, your expectation is perfection for each and every change. It isn't the staff that needs to change, it's the realism of your standards.

[Faelon]

Gomer. I like you. I like your characters. I've played beside you on god knows how many Knights and I typically had the most fun with you. The people who matter like you. The rest are chumps. My view isn't a personal one.

[Ozaru]

Who mentioned budget? Here is an idea.

You want to test a skill, get volunteers from emissaries or the pbase to make a character. Set a date and time for people to log in. Promote them to lvl 50, transfer them to an imm hidden room. And go nuts on it then get feed back. I for one would not be opposed to giving up my time in the effort to make this game fair and balanced without having to eat stupid deaths and rage over it. Not all of us are calm collective people when it comes to this game and let injustices roll off our shoulders.

[Ozaru]

Dav you mentioned that you don't want people stealing your ideas for the mud and I can respect why you would want to keep things close to the vest. I think you should trust long standing players more to help out with the game.

[Olyn]

I'm really glad we have players who care this much about our game, but I still hate coming home and seeing that passion derail a thread and turn it into a shitstorm. If you'd like to be involved in the process, keep your posts on-topic and make sure what you say is valid.

Mania comments belong here:
http://abandonedrealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9626

As for the change and testing process, we can't just give a few vets a 50 and tell them to go nuts. That actually does very little for us. We can easily "run the numbers" and know what happens in standard 50 v 50. In some ways, a level 30 new player is more helpful to observe with a new skill than a level 50 vet. What you guys are great at is coming up with unexpected and sometimes unintended ways for a skill to be used. That kind of creativity rarely comes in a test tube like brawl day.




Anyway, word of recall...

I really like the idea of turning recall into a channeled/focus ability, but I understand the resistance to this. I really thing the distance between hometowns and the number of players is problematic. It wasn't a big deal when the sheer number of PK'ers was higher but now we're in a different situation. I think the source of our opinions on this is tied directly to our playstyle. I'm going to try to pigeonhole a couple of you guys in an attempt to get us to think about why we feel the way we do about this. Maybe it'll help, maybe not.

ranix - You don't see him coming. If you do, he won't bother to engage in the first place. When he fights he dictates all of the conditions by incorporating surprise. He has a very high K/D ratio because he strikes with a clear upper hand and has his escape route planned in advance. Altering word of recall would make him easier to catch in the act and less fun for this player.

rilea - The dueler. He picks out his opponent and wants a fair fight. He wants to beat you with pure skill. He doesn't like lobsided fights and usually tries to join whatever cabal has low numbers at the time. He has a solid K/D ratio, but eats some deaths other players wouldn't because he kept it fair. This player hates when he has the winning skill and strategy, only to see his opponent escape entirely with word of recall over and over again. It's even worse if the opponent "gets lucky" and kills him, despite having lost every other battle, but surviving. Or maybe he simply gets tired of stocking purples, clear potions, fly potions, heal scrolls, gyvels etc. only to have his opponent disappear to a faraway town in an instant, leaving him nothing but empty pockets. Altering word of recall means more fights end in a death and that death is likely to come sooner, which makes it more fun for this player.

[gomerstyle]

Ozaru i couldn't agree more with the some of us not being calm about this game. I admit that i lost my cool when i saw the forum about altering word and recall and that was the straw that broke my back and made me lose it and for those i offended or angered i sincerely apologize. As for what olyn said about it maybe being to a closer town instead of far away might be a good thing. I know i would strategize how to use that in the same way i have used my word of recall and gates, even lately just running around rather then wording. I also have to admit i know i drive people crazy who are after me because by the time they get to valour they have no clue where i might be so it would make me have to work harder on way's to get away and that will be challenging but it could work.

[Olyn]

To build on what Nycticora said somewhere in the thread, there are certain expectations we have for our game. We don't want to take a couple of years off and come back and see our favorite cabal gone, favorite skill nerfed, and so on. Removal of warlords was a terrible thing, but the game headed in a direction where the cabal simply had no purpose. That particular issue was compounded with Keepers sort of missing the mark when they were initially rolled out. Maybe they weren't well received because the Warlord loss still stung, I don't know. Being able to cast recall and instantly get away has been part of this game for a long time and changes need to be approached with caution. That's why Dav opened the floor to everyone here. We don't want to alienate returning players, but we also need to keep an open mind about what will improve our game.

[Esivole]

[quote]ranix - You don't see him coming. If you do, he won't bother to engage in the first place. When he fights he dictates all of the conditions by incorporating surprise. He has a very high K/D ratio because he strikes with a clear upper hand and has his escape route planned in advance. Altering word of recall would make him easier to catch in the act and less fun for this player.

rilea - The dueler. He picks out his opponent and wants a fair fight. He wants to beat you with pure skill. He doesn't like lobsided fights and usually tries to join whatever cabal has low numbers at the time. He has a solid K/D ratio, but eats some deaths other players wouldn't because he kept it fair. This player hates when he has the winning skill and strategy, only to see his opponent escape entirely with word of recall over and over again. It's even worse if the opponent "gets lucky" and kills him, despite having lost every other battle, but surviving. Or maybe he simply gets tired of stocking purples, clear potions, fly potions, heal scrolls, gyvels etc. only to have his opponent disappear to a faraway town in an instant, leaving him nothing but empty pockets. Altering word of recall means more fights end in a death and that death is likely to come sooner, which makes it more fun for this player.[/quote]

#signed

[tayyah]

I would follow suite with gnomer and nyct. I am terrible at pk, I used to be alright, back in the day, but after change after change after change, I just cant keep up anymore. I usually get 25% pk stats on my level 50 deletes, and the only reason I get 1 out of 4 kills, is most likely because I can abuse recall, and able to rest up and try again. take that away, and just dieing all the time doesnt sounds like a fun game to play, so I would be out.

[Faelon]

You don't think you'd improve at all?

I wonder how many people rely on a gimme, because it's so freely available.

[Nycticora]

Hm, that's a very apt writeup of the scenarios and motivations. I'd like to add more context to exactly why I think this would affect the game in such an extreme way.

There's a type of player who knows how to get equipment fast and get up to fighting power quickly. Like Faelon and Gaelyn. When you're engaging this type of player, you have to make a risk/reward analysis before engaging. The question is "Is it safe for me to skirmish with this character? How much do I have to lose vs how much he has to lose?" Both players might even have the exact same chance of dying, but the cost of engagement is different.

It also comes up in cases where one party or the other has a slight advantage, not an extreme one. When they're close in equipment and skill. They have to decide how likely the situation is from getting out of hand to decide whether or not it will be fun. The weaker player might know he has a lower chance of victory, but chooses to engage because he's skilled enough to have a low chance of suffering complete defeat.

The decision is whether to skirmish or log out.

It's my strong opinion that if there's no "get out of jail free" card because word of recall is defeatable, both ranix and rilea will decide against engaging entirely more often. They won't commit to the fight and take their lump. They'll quit out. I know for a fact that I would, every single time. Others would also. Every time a sweeping change is made in favor of "increased lethality" there's a chance you'll cause a chilling effect on the playerbase in the form of fewer engagements.

I support the change to disallow recall when a character is overburdened because when it happens it's likely to end in a cost less than death. I like the idea of being able to use strength damage to force your opponent to discard some of his equipment to get away safely. There's still a winner and still a loser. Someone lost his sack, that can be a big deal for some players but it's not death. Both players can still feel like they accomplished something.

Yes, it can be frustrating when your opponent recalls after a fight. But how much more frustrating will it be when your opponent just logs out instead of engaging in the first place?

I don't think there can be any chance of failure inserted into Recall whatsoever and avoid the extreme failure scenario of engagements being drastically reduced. When you quaff that potion, it has to work. That constant is too fundamental to fuck around with.

[Nycticora]

Incidentally this is also my reason for supporting the change to re-enable 'disarm to ground'. Increasing the cost of engagement in ways that don't immediately lead to death.

The problem of people recalling all the time without suffering any drawbacks is a real problem, but killing them outright more often is not a real solution.

[tayyah]

I cant type nearly as fast, or as accurate as I used to. When I have equipment I lose my nerve, and generally panic and make terrible decisions. I am terrible at keeping up with the rock paper scissors, and I don't have the time in my life to make the game a full time job in which I would need to be able to improve on my skills. so no, I cant see how removing one of my only reliable escape plans will make me improve

[Vevier]

Hi team.

I'd like to start off by reminding everyone that right now NOTHING is changing. Dav's putting out feelers and trying to gauge a reaction. So let's stop getting up in arms about things changing and threatening reactions, since it's not happening, at least not yet.

That being said, I'll throw in my 2c. I hate change. There's a lot of things that have been thrown around in immchat, and as Olyn can attest a lot of the time my reaction is that I don't like it, just because it's different. It doesn't quite feel right.

On this matter, I let it stew for a while, and I've decided that I don't like word being channeled. It's meant to be a get-away and unless we start channeling more spells and making our consumables (which wouldn't need to be channeled) more useful/common, I think that's a step in the wrong direction, and I actually think the ikuzaki/channel mechanics are really cool.

I do, however, like the idea of a 1 tick beacon (or bacon, thanks for that imagery, Kato) that will linger, and if you recall in the same room as that beacon/bacon you'll head back to their temple, with a bit longer lag than they have. I think this would produce some interesting mechanics like trying to time your recall for the tick and trying to run to a not well known room. I do, however, disagree that it should show up on where. I'd rather reward the players who are checking where and recognizing where their enemy poofed from than allowing one more golden road trick. You would still have a chance to get away and get ahead of them, then try to dodge and recall again to actually get away.

Also, for clarity's sake, m1co, kick doesn't interrupt channeling, whether you are kicking or being kicked.

[Davairus]

Here is a new idea, one that I actually cooked up myself, so feel free to poke fun - I won't cry or delete all my chars or anything.

Recall, which as the word implies involves memory of familiar places, would leave behind "dream essence" whicah can only be collected with a dream catcher item from the air ruler (this is already a mandatory item to carry anyway). These essences could be placed into a dream jar which you guys would purchase from the magewares store in timaran for your relics, for a fairly respectible price. Once the dream jar is full it can then allow you to scry a target, consuming the jar. NB. You would have to get a new jar. We could tune the price, but I guess this would be 99 relics, not something devastating, and you can only have one jar on your person at a time. It'd be a "mystical item" so doesnt go in sacks.

Obviously the numbers would have to be tuned, but this would make it possible for a mage to build and sell a magical item while they have downtime, as a nice magey thing to do. Everyone who doesnt want to be friends with them can try to just hit mages like the pinatas they are, to get their own, and you would naturally try to delay recalling from your opponent unless you really needed to do it, to deprive them of scry mats as much as possible.

The one thing I must say if we do this idea is I wouldn't allow shamans to cast recall on others anymore. I think we would want do a random snowstorm in some random area where you could get these also, and make that a more reliable source than from people recalling. I don't think we would want to put a whole lot of it on recall but just something to keep them honest with their recall spell.

[Andrael]

After playing Libera and Glacian, I will say this, Recall can save a life, as well as ruin it. You have to be careful when it comes to recalling, especially if its you, a solo Anathema Legion and two Knights who must kill you without any holding back. So, one will obviously chase you, while the other will wait at your hometown for you to come in, they should lag you and proceed to deal some damage.

Now, we have word of recall and recall potions. But there's also heaven's gate, gate, and bard's Torrents of Turmoil(rather underrated I think). We all know what the previous do, but some people don't know what Torrents does. It used to take you back to the spot you either logged in at, or the most recent recall spot. Now its a recall to your home town, or to wherever you last recalled.

On Meillon, I used Torrents as a tactic. I'd run somewhere off the beaten path, wait till the person found me there, recall, thus setting my torrent for that spot, run off, wait an hour hiding someone where else, the torrents back to that spot. Most people will not check a spot right after a person recalled because they won't think they can get back there that fast.

Now, lets add to the fact that Torrents doesn't just affect the bard singing it, but its whole group. I've use it to get a group out of a shitstorm in winter before. And thankfully we weren't all scattered to eachother's temples, but in one spot. I'm not sure if this is how it currently works, but its how it used to work.

Now, if anyone has seen it, they know how it works. Bard sings the starting part, then you hear the thunder rumble, which is an area wide thing. You are lagged while doing this part, and can be attacked, but if you get attacked or even hit by a lag, you still go because you already called the magic forces of a storm to bring you away.

What I am suggesting with recall, is nothing drastic. Keep it to the hometown's temples, but add a moment, not where they can be interupted, but a full tick, like with torrents, where they can do absolutely nothing but auto fight back if they are attacked. I mean, if I can run away fast enough to get torrents off fully without being attacked, either I'm a good runner, or people suck at tracking these days. And I'd be able to get it off constantly.

[Arunore]

The snowstorm is an awesome idea. Maybe spitting out mobs that adjust to the level of whoever attacks it, dropping mats for the mystical thingy. I like how Coterie currencies are setup and I'd like to see more involvement with those and our "professions" I.E. imbuing, forging, planting, enchanting.

Furthermore, whichever cabal is on top (or cabal with most captured items) determines the storm. Warlords bring sandstorms, Legion summons eclipse, Keepers with forest fires. Storms will trigger emotes to adjacent areas, not global ones. But if you did this you might not want to incorporate mats for recall pots this way, but this would really invoke cabal warfare.

An idea for bard's torrents, in order to use the bard has to have a fully tuned or exceptionally well-tuned instrument before they can sing it.