Cabals

[jaran]

Hi there,

I'm most likely going to get HORRIFICALLY flamed and shot down for totally respectable and considered reasons for saying this, but at the moment I feel I need to make the point.

Ok, so lets just say for arguments sake, that you are rank... 43 - 46 or so and in a cabal. Now currently, if your item is taken you will receive no experience from ranking until your item is returned.

My view on this (although I am fully aware and respectful of the reasons that this was implemented) is that this now makes ranking to 50 when your in a cabal almost impossibly difficult unless you are unemployed and have 12 hours a day free to play at awkward times when nobody really is around.

For example, lets say your rank 43/44. These ranks are horrible at the best of times since you are inevitably in the range of some 50's who have an enormous and virtually impossible rank advantage. Now add in the idea that if your item is taken, you must spend 30 mins or so killing the rival cabal's guardian, at further risk of a mob death from the new henchmen system if there are rival cabal members on out of range and an almost impossible situation if they are in range. Now, lets assume your like me and can only spare maybe 2 hours every night or so to play ar, this means your going to be stuck at that rank for possibly a long time due to constant cabal defending/item retrieving from guys, mostly at 50 who dont need to rank.

This problem gets worse when if your like me and can only make one surge a week and during this surge, your item is deliberately taken by a rival cabal since they KNOW its a surge.

Personally I think this new 'no experience' thing is too harsh and unless cabal induction is changed to rank 50's only, will make guys stuck in the low 40's lives a living hell with a very very slim chance of survival and certainly zero fun.

[Esivole]

Didn't they tone down cabal gaurdians?

[Burzuk]

First of all, a level 43 isn't going to be in any 50's PK range UNLESS they're a compound exp combo, in which case that's part of the deal for playing, say, a fire berserker over a human berserker. If making it up to 50 is going to be a problem, one should really be playing something like a human shaman. If you're playing a combo with BOTH race and class exp penalties, you're already asking for a difficult time at the pre-50 hump, cabal or not. However, you'll also notice that, as with the Nubal vs Grathin fight posted on the forum earlier, level differences are much less a determinant in fights as they used to be due to some recent changes (and hence, there are fewer reasons to complain about level differences now than ever). So yes, the new loss-of-cabal-item penalty is significant, but it's only one part of the larger picture.

Secondly, this looks to me to be a problem with current Legions specifically and not a systemic problem, since the other cabals have had recent members who have reached 50 just fine with the support of their cabalmates (Nubal, Mizerath, etc). I've been watching cabals with some interest lately, and it's clear to me that Legions are making some important strategic mistakes. Two example incidents:

* With only two of the more hapless Justices on (Thurgrol and Grunky), Remmenon decides to lead a raid with the help of two Legion wannabes against Justice and successfully take the Justice item, only to lose it uncontested when one of the stronger 50 Justices logs on later to help with the ongoing retrieval. End result: no tactical gain for Legion, and both Remmenon and the wannabes put themselves squarely on the Justice kill list, a fact that Remmenon paid for later when one of the Justices in question took out Remmenon during a Legion retrieval attempt from Knights (and the wannabes will probably face similar retribution later). Remmenon and the wannabes could have simply spent that time leveling, but tried to bite off more than they could chew instead, and for what gain? Bad strategic decision.

* Two Justices (both of whom Kolok had previously raided Justice cabal to try to kill individually in separate incidents) team up to kill Kolok while he was helping 3 lower Legionnaires level. Instead of simply cutting his losses (since the other Legionnaires had saved his eq) and continuing to help his cabal level, however, Kolok instead decides to get wanted by attacking one of the Justices in town, then runs away during apprehension and thereby causing the Justice to raid Legion to force the apprehension. End result, the 3 lowbie Legions lose an entire surge's worth of leveling while they attempt to retrieve their lost cabal item, and Kolok eventually gets apprehended anyway (losing all equipment) after dragging his entire cabal down with him. Bad strategic decision.

Thanks to the roster command (which shows much more information for the higher-up Imms, such as hours played per char this month, etc), it's clear to me that Knights have actually been less collectively active than Legion (and that's not including the wannabes, which overwhelmingly favor Legion in terms of numbers, activity, and direct involvement), but Legion continues to shoot themselves repeatedly in the foot as a cabal. Because of Legion's healthy applicants situation I'm not worried about their long-term health, but I think it's far too premature to blame the leveling problems of Legions on changes to the system. They've been acting like they're the premier power in Thera when, quite frankly, they're not ready to yet. And it's the Legion lowbies who are paying the price the most as the cabal goes through its growing pains.

Even though much of Legion's problems are self-inflicted, we're still looking at tweaking how the item loss penalty will work to help them out a bit. However, keep what I've said above in mind before requesting for any specific changes. Lowbies in cabals aren't meant to be given free rides, nor can they expect to hide behind PK ranges to avoid facing the consequences of their actions. And I repeat again something I've often said: cabal life isn't meant for everyone.

[jaran]

Yes they did, but it still takes me about 15 - 20 mins to kill it solo without any interferance from the rival cabal, when you add in the fact that a lot of the time there will be at least one guy from the rival cabal online when an item has been taken... it starts to become extremely difficult when you have limited time to do anything but get your item back, hopefully survive, then have to probably deal with the rival cabal simply attacking your cabal once again and retaking it almost immediately.

EDIT: I wrote the last paragraph and posted it before I realised Burzuk had responded, thanks for the responce.

I understand what your saying, I'm just finding it extremely difficult at the moment I guess due to the current circumstances. I fully understand and am totally prepared for the normal 43 - 50 hardship that I have had to face on numerous older characters Ive had, however at the moment I'm finding the current situation impossible and have become a bit depressed about it.

I think currently, the specific problem with Legion is that there is currently only 1 member at 50, with all others in the low to mid 40's. Both Justice and Knights have multiple members at 50 and due to the reasons you have highlighted both these cabal's are now making sure that the lowbie Legions never make it to 50.

Hopefully I can manage to get a good 2 hours ranking during the only surge I can make all week and then it wont be such of an issue.

[Louis]

this is my opinion.

if you are only one in your cabal on, and there are other cabals taking your item and ruining your day, then pretty much its the fault of the cabal for not having more active players and you deserve to be pounded. only two things you can do.

1) wait for things to get better (because all cabals fluctuate)
2) step up and make the best of what you can do (set the example and show that you won't back down to them)

if that includes ranking at 3 am or sharpening your pk skills or doing whatever it takes, so be it

[Hilemal]

Sorry Balaks, but can't make you look like you have it all hard.

Yes, there are multiple lvl 50 Justices right now. How did that come to be? We all worked hard to level up, using alliances and smart decisions, to get the job done. When Jutazz and Vakarath were ranking up, they were both being pounded on by the 50's. It's just the nature of the game.

So while it did suck, the pay-off was definitely worth it. Suck it up, die a couple times, use the Justices to your advantage (instead of committing crimes, try behaving in town for now so that you have their protection), and work your way up as you can.

[jaran]

Your misunderstanding my point - All of the current Knights and Justices got to 50 BEFORE the current 'no experience gained when item is out of cabal' rule. Anyway, even if they didnt, currently I doubt anybody from the other cabals have to consistantly deal with cabal items being removed which is happening on an extremely regular basis for Legion. Just check the possession and you will see a big fat 0% after Legion for item protection.

I have NO problem with having a hard time getting to 50, none at all, under normal circumstances. I've done it many times, my last character was an Elf Paladin which I think is the worst possible experience combination and is a class where you are permanently in the range of people 5 or 6 ranks above you. I've also ranked an illithid Psi to 50, which as anybody who has tried one will tell you is extremely difficult.

I cannot log on at 2am or any other odd hour during week days to rank, since I have to wake up at 7am every morning to go to work. My time is now limited at the weekends also, although obviously I'll be trying my best to rank then.

Currently, Legion are being targetted by Knights, Justice and now I understand that there is a new rule for Warlord's doing the same, although Warlords wont be taking the item (I assume anyway).

I'm confident in my pk skills, the fighting thing is not really the issue for me, all I want to do is get to 50 because I DETEST ranking at the best of times and if everytime I log on I have to spend all my time getting the cabal item back due to the fact that the cabal I'm currently in is in bad shape through no fault of my own then its a problem for me.

All I'm trying to do is point out that if you are unable to gain experience when your item is taken and this happens on a very regular basis, then I think the new system is too harsh. You may disagree and thats fair enough.

I'm not complaining about the usual hardships involved in being any cabal, just the no experience thing.

[Davairus]

[jaran]

[Stephen2]

What job did you get, B?

[jaran]

I'm working in a hostel for mentally ill people.

[Phostan]

Let me point out something stupidly obvious.
Certain cabals only have a minimum level requirement, not a maximum.
Thus, if you suck too much, or in Balaks case, dont have the time to screw around with the cabal items while trying to level, hit 50, then apply. It worked wonders for Grunky.

[jaran]

Also, as for the guardian having less hit points, thats fine and great but...



<771hp 306m 108mv <day> <none> <mob>
Holy Knight parries your attack.
Holy Knight's arrow devastates you!
You parry Holy Knight's attack.
Holy Knight's heavenly wrath === OBLITERATES === you!
Holy Knight has a few scratches.

<546hp 306m 89mv <day> <none> <mob> flee
flee

Holy Knight parries your attack.
Holy Knight's arrow devastates you!
Holy Knight's heavenly wrath === OBLITERATES === you!
That really did HURT!
You feel unclean.
Holy Knight has a few scratches.


Its still not easy.

[Burzuk]

It happens -- the wrath % on that mob's fight prog isn't very high at all. Nobody notices when the mob goes a large number of rounds without casting any spells, but it's suddenly the work of the devils when they cast consecutive ones. That's the way random numbers work. I should also mention that mage types who can't tank are much worse off during solo retrievals than fighter types, so take your difficulties with a grain of salt.

Louis's "wait for things to get better" advice is spot-on. Legions have been meddling around so much (they've had the Knight item and the Justice item multiple times over this last month) that they've brought on the difficulties upon themselves before their members have earned enough levels to fully handle it. We've barred lawfuls from Knights and goods from Justice precisely so that the two cabals would be at odds in the absence of Legion -- and it's been working. Things will play themselves out if Legions would adopt a "shut up and level" strategy instead of actively antagonizing other cabals before they're strong enough to handle it. IMO with their large pool of wannabes, time is on Legion's side.

[Hrash]

Man this conversation makes me want to return to AR and roll up a dkn for legions...

[Jamus]

I'll start one too.