Survey: Right/Wrong pk reasons

[Davairus]

I'm making a list of fair/unfair reasons for attacking someone, with how much aggression is justified. Also alternatives Post follow-ups with whatever you think should be here. And discuss. Anything that we agree upon is ok, will go into this first post after I edit. This will probably become a pk rules helpfile if we can create something beautiful, and restore tranquility to the galaxy under the Immortal's supreme rule. Then you can just make a complaint of some sort like "Imms! I was attacked without cause!" and we'll be able to investigate and administer PUNISHMENT.

n.b. closing doors (restraining them) would also count as attacks, worth killing someone for. As would placing contracts.

To get the ball rolling...

Right CAUSE to kill someone (we should try to be exhaustive)
* insults you (kill/steal)
* has some rares (kill/steal)
* stole from you (kill)
* has attacked you (kill)
* killed you (multikill)
* has assisted in your death somehow (kill)
* defended (heal or attack you) whoever you rightly attacked (kill)
* entered your cabal (kill)
(every character is allowed to insult- within the boundaries of their particular alignment)

"Open season" characters (following people can repeatedly kill an open season without new cause)
* Knight (all evils)
* Justice (all)
* Legion (all)
* Warlord (all)
* (BOUNTIED) (all)
* (OUTCAST) (all)
* hasnt bought protection (Legion)
* stole your cabal item
(open season characters still need CAUSE if the other player is not open season)
* level 50 evils (all)
* all (level 50 evils)

Wrong reasons to kill someone (just the common ones)
* me evil, him good
* easy-to-kill newbie
* not much eq so it's a piece of cake
* fighting mobs (because theyre provided by the Creator for this purpose)
(all of these and whatever else comes up are grounds for PUNISHMENT)

Finally, some alternatives to killing (even though its justified)
* insult back (so they attack YOU first)
* demand public apology
* demand payment
* suggestions welcome

updated: out-of-range interfence (like door closing) would count as an attack, allowable with CAUSE as that is the only form of recourse you have when you are insulted from outside the pk range

[Soldier]

Fuck if I want to attack someone I will but if I'm a good or neutral I gotta have a reason.

[Davairus]

And you gotta have a reason when your evil as well. See "open season" list - you have to be level 50 evil or Legion to openly attack others without them picking the fight

[Slade]

Eh, I dunno, if you are any evil, as in even non-caballed (esp. dark-knight, necro, others) I could see them just deciding to kill whoever (iv they are merciful perhaps they could not kill someone who is obviously a newbie) after level 30 or so, thats just kind of what they do. Same with non-caballed goods (esp. paladin) against evils. That initial kill is fine imo, as long as they just take what they need, enjoy their fun without being a dick, and move on. Its after that first kill where I think the shadiness begins. Thats the time to hold back and wait for better reasons.

[Davairus]

.. which probably makes roleplay sense to you, and I would daresay to a lot of other people to. But it is a GAME, and in practice this results in people creating niche evils like Nikki and Marlene, to pk where its all good instead of ranking. Goods have simply ranked by them, which has resulted in a rather boring good-align dominated level 50 scene.

If they want to get started sooner, they *can* join Legion to declare themselves open season at an earlier rank. Although we can add this, say that evils are open season for all level 50s, and vica versa, so they can pk 50s as early as they like with recourse allowed..since theyre going to pk people who're levelling later.

The idea is people get to 50 before they go pk mental. Remember guys, this is a game. Our game. Which we should be playing at/near 50 where classes are most balanced. There's still the insult thing for picking fights - if they insulted you back its go time. Its a way to get consent. Its rp.

Initial kills are just as shady as multikills, kills are kills.

If I hear a strong case for evil being allowed to attack without provokation before 50 I will definitely listen to it. But so far I have not so I have no reasons to make exceptions for them in this list. Leaving it as a reasonless kill - "I'm evil" is not enough to satisfy the guy getting his ass whooped, and that is a problem. You should think of that freedom as a REWARD for geting to 50 while open season, not an entitlement..

[Crale]

I have an idea.. I think that there should be a command that players can type, such as PK and NOPK. When you type NOPK, the PK flag is taken from your name and you are free to gain ranks and explore, but you cannot slay others and they cannot slay you. I would say, for newbies NOPK should be on at the very beginning until they discover the command or decide they're ready. At which point they could type PK and they PK flag would appear next to their name and show others that are capable of being PKed. Also, if you type NOPK, I think you should still be able to group with other PKers and gain ranks. This would solve the problem someone mentioned in an earlier topic about you gaining to rank 15 with someone and then they go into town and slay someone and you get autoassist and become a criminal. You could have on NOPK and this would solve the problem. I think that is a good idea.. and could solve most problems with newbies being frustrated about PK's and such and wouldnt create any negativity about "being attacked for the wrong reasons" or whatever. And one more thing, maybe you should be allowed to type it whenever you want, or there could be a limit of maybe... 10 NOPK's you have until you run out. And you could possibly do immortal quests for more or something... Alright, would like some feedback on this.

[Davairus]

It wont work because then you can insult others using npk without recourse. Same danger the NEW flag had for being abused, and as "monkey" has wisely pointed out, the whole thing is just a symptom of an underlying problem - no well-defined pk rules.

Believe me, if there was a way to hardcode RP into the game I would jump on it. But I can't stop people insulting each other without removing the ability to speak/emote. And that means imm-forcement. There just has to be a rule here. It is very important to me (and to you I should think) that we have game rules we are all willing to follow. I won't need to enforce them very often. So hopefully we can discuss these in an intelligent manner, including raising any objections in a civil and well-presented way.

[etso]

I dunno dav, you gotta watch what you do. The already frail player base, which mostly consists of level 35's, like that niche level. You take that away, and I am willing to bet that we lose quite a few more people. Personally I liked that range far better than 50, I think with all my chars actually.

[Crale]

Well, anyone can open and blab their mouth and talk shit, and you cant really do much about it unless someone is offended and reports it. I was just saying that this PK, NOPK thing could solve some other problems that newbies had with getting PKed and or wanted when they didnt know what was going on. I know that some of the people I PKed were like "WTF DID I DO TO YOU!?!". As far as taking advantage of this PK, NOPK command to insult others without consequence, then if the insultee is pissed off or is truly offended by an insult without being able to do anything about it, then they should report it in a note to immortal or something, and have it dealt with. Otherwise insulting is just a way of the game. And to make it fair so that people cant take advantage of it, you could do like.. "You cant be in a Cabal unless you are ready to be a PKer, at which point you can never use the NOPK command again..." And the NOPKers wouldnt be able to have stats recorded and showed off to everyone. I've found a ton of posts of how someone has a problem with being PKed and not being able to do anything about it since their char is very weak at starting. Just some more food for thought here.

[Trillian]

Essentially, you're suggesting a removal of the silent killer level 3 muddres love to play. No more "DEATH TO THE WICKED" Lightwalkers and no more "DEATH TO ALL!" Evils.. The problem is, what does this leave for a state of pk? If no one is supposed to initiate any combat, where does first-strike combat take place? Theoretically, everything will eventually dwindle down to nothing which means we may as well just remove the PK-system.

As Marlene, one of the things I enjoyed doing (by the way, I sucked as a niche pker..) was looking for people who were merrily walking around or ranking. People resting up after emerald, or people just stalking away, easy prey, easy targets. In my opinion, this opportunity played into the hands of a chaotic, evil Legion-wannabe.. (I applied at level 18, but yeah, that fizzled, fast).

Under wrong reasons to kill someone you have
"* fighting mobs (because theyre provided by the Creator for this purpose)
(all of these and whatever else comes up are grounds for PUNISHMENT) ".
This means that combat should be straight forward and clearly stated. I think this is inherently bad for the system because it 1) destroys a sense of paranoia, and b) implies that all classes are the same in open combat, which is not the case. (As a thief, if you do not get the first shot, your odds of landing some quickstrike skills - blackjack/backstab - are voided).

For open season, I don't understand what it means for Knight/Justice/Legion/Warlord to kill anyone without new cause. I'm interpreting it to mean that they can freely attack any within their range that suits the profile... but Justices attacking everyone?.. is this more because of cabal warfare? The other open season's have implied reasons to attack while the first four don't.

Also, in regards to the alternatives, what if they blatant say no to your demands?.. Is that grounds for initiation or do you just go back to drinking tea at market square?

[Davairus]

Eh why would we miss niche 35s if they quit? All those guys want to do is piss on lowbies for cheap thrills, and that keeps more people away from 50 (and in many cases, the game). This is fun for ONE person, for the other its hardcore frustrating. With them gone, some people who actually want to be 50 will get there, or at least into pk of 50s.

Go take a survey and see who cares Marlene deleted, or your latest lowbie pk punk deleted. It is PROVEN that people miss Etso and Grathin and actually want new characters like that at 50. Just like it is PROVEN that people quit the game in disgust over lowbie pk.

A level 30 silent pker isn't a badass. He's a vet shafting newbies without earning any right to. I'm not saying it isnt a valid role. I'm saying it should be EARNED first.. that's all. It makes no sense to me, as a player who only gives a fuck about level 50, to stop people getting into level 50 pk range. It make sense to stop them gaining 50 once they hit it, but til then.. I honestly don't see why I would want to stop them ranking, or stop ranking myself, even if I was playing an evil.

...also you have open season the wrong way round, its the Knight who everyone can attack, but NOT vica versa. Only Legion gets that privilige because theyre the evil cabal.

...also if youre using alternatives, its because you ALREADY have grounds for initiation and youre just trying to do something different for a change instead of show your balls

[Saegen]

I think the NOPK thing would work for newbies well. Like the new flag it could be that. Make it like the nomagic command and when you start the game you start with it. The rules apply for the new flag, no rares, ect. It should be auto removed at 36. When you think you are ready to PK or use rares, ect, then you type, nopk and confirm it like the nomagic command. It can be reported to immortals of neglect while under its protection and they can remove it if they deem the reason worthy. Does that all make since.

[Davairus]

No. It will be abused before it will be reported. Thats why it can't be done.

Let me spell this out clearly one last time.

* Nobody wants to drive other players from the game. Anybody who disagrees with this statement, is unwelcome.

In this case.. it happens to be attacks with no apparent reason driving people off. Based upon my observations over 6 years, only level 50 evils have ever gotten away with that without getting other people thoroughly disgusted with the game. Its been slowly killing the mud's playerbase. Its not me driving people away.. by adding new rules annoying everyone.... its you, driving people away and making imms feel new rules are needed. By pking lowbies without rp, without getting to 50 first, where its believable, all you're doing is making yourself look like a trash piece of shit - and because that's a vet, it makes half the playerbase seem like a big grouped up trash piece of shit. You should not feel entitled to do that just because you picked evil, or they did, until level 50.

AR is drawing new players, and you are running them off the game, because of treating everyone like open season. This is not an acceptable standard for a MUD of this type, so we dont retain our newbies, and we just gradually lose people as they (a) get sick of it, or (b) get bored of having nobody to fight at 50. Our current average playerbase is like 10-15 people. Frankly we deserve it. Its time to let the fuck up before you get rid of that too. You need to do it at 50 where its wanted.. you need to stop the "fun" silent pk at levels where its not. You're ruining it for yourselves in the long run.

I dont really want to add more rules, but I dont want to code for a game with a playerbase that drives off its own players no matter how hard I work on it.

[Trillian]

[Davairus]

Thats definiltey a no-no on the silent pk issue.

[Xythiessi]

What about the level 30's Drow or Duergar coming apon the Elf or Dwarf and kicking the snobbish hell out of them ., sitting at north square all High and Mighty ? Is Im Drow your Elf reason enough?

[Davairus]

Now this is better. Now we are looking for some common exceptions. But should be telling me WHY you think it should be ok, with (insert reasons), instead of asking me if it is. That's why I've posted this on the forum. Offhand I would say that elf/evil and duergar/dwarf prejudice should probably be put aside until 50, as its just an excuse to silent-pk in a niche.

Defending groupmates/friends sounds ok.. it'd be stupid to attack a guy in a group anyway.

As for enforcement, we can do this several ways.

1) I can create an exhaustive rule.
2) I can throw everything into RP guide with no rule.
3) I can just rule out the worst stuff that drives people away i.e. silent pk.

[Crale]

Back onto the insulting issue.. Maybe if you put just a basic command such as "block <user>" or "silent <user>", something along those lines, then if a person really does want the insults to stop then they do that. This command could either block the Name that person is on, or their IP completely, up to you. When they are ready to unblock some people, but don't remember exactly who is blocked, They could type "blocked" or something and then unblock them. This command would simply mute the target of it, but would not prevent view of them entirely in the game.

[Xythiessi]

So Im a level 32 Drow Shaman, theres this smug little Elven Pally standing at north square , I come into town , I know he sees me , He does not run away and cower in Valour , Is that reason enough? I would think that just breathing to a Drow would be enough but I understand the reasoning behind it , I just hope theres a little case by case and not cut and dry ,

[Davairus]

No, thats silent, so unless you're at 50, you can't just unload on him.

update: fixed the helpfiles for elf, duergar, drow, human, so they dont make it sound like you can just silent pk