Vulns

[Davairus]

We were talking in the chat about how the vulns seem to dominate the fighter races that have them and more than a few people have harsh words to say about it. So here is a thread for you to say your piece about it.

Only thing I felt like saying is resistances have work arounds (like dont use phys on a giant) but vulns dont so maybe they just shouldnt hit so hard.

[marsd]

Uh yeah, like how I pwned Zharek in .... countable rounds within a screen of combat. And how Aerandir pwned all of us with winter's touch.

Or how effigies pwn giants, etc etc. Watching *** fly past you and you dying in a round and a half is painful. Kinda demoralizing too if you're on the receiving brunt of it.

Never liked fighting using another person's vulns, never liked fighting against vulns :p

[Amdorin]

The vuln on avians is harsher than the one on giants, simply because Avians don't have the hella hp that giants do. I remember Gannon just tanking me unsanc'd using a vuln against him and still managed to get my health down with me running off.

Giants are fine I think because they have so many other good things about them. Wielding two handed weapons in one hand, resistance to physical. If you are talking about lowering their vuln, you should lower their resistance too.

Avians have perma-fly if they wanna fly, sickness kicks their ass. Perhaps since Avians have found comfort landing now sometimes for the sake of battle, they could lose some (only some) of their vuln to sickness.

[formalism]

I don't really have much to add, except to agree with Dav that resistances and vulnerabilities in a race are never really balanced. A fire giant, for example, doesn't have a choice with regard to how he wants to manipulate his racial resistances/vulnerabilities, while someone who is looking to kill him does. I mean, when it comes down to pk time, and I wanted to kill a fire giant, for the purposes of that fight the fire giant might as well not have any resistance to physical attacks, since I'm only going to exploit his vulnerability to ice. To me he's just a walking, dead target.

And though the resistance surely helps the fire giant while he's ranking, I think we can all agree that tanking is a far less dangerous and frustrating affair than even those brief and intermittent times when playerkilling occurs.

I don't have enough time to suggest solutions (like they'd be heeded anyways), but I thought the problem, at least, needed addressing.

[Quiet Wanderer]

I agree totally to this issue. The vulns need to be toned down. When facing one of the aforementioned races (dwarves too, but to a lesser extent), it's like some others ahve said: The resistances = squat, because their vulns are overpowered. I don't think firegiants need much toning down, because they have a lot of benefits, but avians could use some.

[Grayden]

i disagree i think duegar shamans, should be vul to more, and double the vuln to water. That might tip the balance, oh and paladins vuln to daggers should be harsh to balance things too

[formalism]

[Slade]

The reasons I would recommend human to the average person 90% of the time: decent stats, no exp penalty, and no vulnerability. Funny that it becomes so significant, but it is.

There is a semi workaround in that most of the weapon-based ways to exploit vulns seem to fall in the same weapon type usually (water cube, wave churner, various bow solutions, all being segment), so you can just try to specialize in the weapon type advantageous to that. But still people can weapon ward, and even without, its not THAT much of a counter.

Anyway, yes, I think vulns are nasty. Pick up a water cube and you have what, a unique (at least good rare?) level weapon all of a sudden? What race really is worth the vuln? Illithid do get a lot between their stats and shock. No one else really, even dwarves that get great stats. Certainly not duergars, who don't even get the nice stats dwarves do. Avian flight isn't so amazing anymore, plus their stats took a big hit in the revamp (not to mention new vuln solution like emerald longsword, I haven't seen that at work yet but ow that must hurt). Gnomes? No. Fire giants get strength, but shitty everything else, plus the vuln is a terrible one.

Also, all of these races have exp penalities to varying degrees on top of it (which is another balancing factor), usually large ones at that.

[divsky]

Take away their vuln and duergars are basically humans with magic resistance.

[formalism]

[divsky]

shafted? 2 dex for 3 con is a pretty good trade

[Slade]

[formalism]

[Kalist19]

Vulns are there to balance strong races. Sure, humans don't have any vulns, but when was the last time you saw a human do as much damage as a fire giant?

The only reason people should be complaining about vulns 'now' and not 4 years ago is because now there are more ways to prevent your foe from disarming you (see weapon ward and double grip). Oh, and the fact that there are some weapons around now that there wern't back then (see ice polearm).

Races with vulns have vulns for a reason, and when a person makes a char of any race, they usually understand and accept that fact. Like someone said earlier, if you don't want to have a vulnerability, be a human, drow, elf, or slith.

If you want to lower the damage multiplyer for vulns go ahead, or maybe think about turning vulns into a 'chance-to-hit' sort of like weapon advantages as opposed to 'increased-damage' as it is now. In this system, using an ice weapon would help you land more hits on a firegiant, regarldess of weapon/stance disadvantages but without the extra damage multiplyer.

[formalism]

[Davairus]

These are just my thoughts about the various resists and vulns and I dont really want to elaborate too much why because it'd drag on too long.

Vastly overpowered:
halfling = resist some stuff, no vuln (at least its not res magic anymore)

Suggestion - make them pay!

Balanced:
dwarf/duergar = magic resist, for vuln water (harsh but fair)
illithid = "shock" ability, for vuln slash (harsh but fair)
vampire = lots of style, for vuln holy (harsh but fair)

Suggestion - leave it like it is!

Maybe ok:
avian = perm fly, for vuln disease (feels too harsh for a perk that's now so-so for everyone except mages)
elf/drow = perm sneak, with no great vuln.. ? (perk is kinda overpowered but a seasoned vet can still deal)

Suggestion - weaken perks! restrict their vulns to material only!

Gimped:
giant = resist phys (completely circumventable), for vuln mental (unfair)
gnome = nothing?, for vuln bash (unfair)

Suggestion - make their perks more buff! like giants being fully resistant to weapon attacks, and gnomes to afflictive spells..

Here is why stats and sizes arent going to be seriously considered in my "vulns" thoughts.
Minotaur stats: STR: 23, INT: 17, WIS: 18, DEX: 17, CON: 23

[Louis]

i agree with all the points in this last post.

[divsky]

Even before the recent set of changes I always thought giants were over-rated but not over-powered. And now.. well, they're gimps. And fire giants, I can't even see why someone would even bother playing them now. And gnomes.. Jesus Christ, they can take all the help they can get. That 3 dex they just got is just the beginning. Elves, I think they do alright, they've got some definate perks but their hp is just horrible. Avians used to be overpowered but they got what's been coming to them, they're fine.

Giants and gnomes though, they're the ones that need help.

I agree with everything dav said.

[dashpunk217]

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don't mess with halfings....no one plays 'em so you don't need to mess with them! your only hurting me and other devoted non-trash players!

[Davairus]

Yeah the low con is why I proposed just material damage vulns for those.. mild vulns so to speak.