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Concentrate: pincer attack, sidearm smash, stun volley
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Accident-Prone



Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 95
Location: Outside your window

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject:

gr8mage,

I can understand your frustration, with learning the simple mechanics of the game, the class skills and the maps. And then on top of all that Dav and Crew throw in all these new changes. But for some of us that have been here for a while, I think I speak for all of us, it is most welcome and refreshing. It keeps us interested and keeps us playing.
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gr8mage



Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject:

they do look cool thats why Im apprehensive. Stuff that is "OMG look thats cool" is either way overpowered, or unnecessary fluff.
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marsd



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 836
Location: Magewares

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject:

Well I'm fine with them. I've always been fine with changes. I just roll a few chars up to test play them from 1-4x everytime there's major changes. And I don't see how new players are going to suffer, because since they are new, they don't have to RELEARN anything. Whereas for players who played the classes before changes will have to completely change their style of play, and that isn't easy. Get it?
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject:

Quote:
all this new stuff will mean people who were vet at the old system learned the new system easily because they can devote time to that, meaning they can then learn all this stuff now too very quickly, meaning they now have a three part advantage over pure noobs, and anyone who was slightly mediocre for pking is now owned


These hobble/concentration skills aren't adding a new dimension to gameplay, they're backing our existing concept that you arent supposed to flee with hobbles (that's why the duration/lags already existed). Its a stronger incentive to fight back instead of trying to run off actually.
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Burzuk
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Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 530

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:15 am    Post subject:

I'm wearing an uncomfortable suit in some foreign city, hunched over a laptop waiting for my ride to a business meeting to arrive, but I have time to add a few quick notes (most of which has already been said, but I'm putting together here):

Hobble and dirt have different but very similarly powerful effects. On a purely numerical basis, hobble causing the loss of dodge versus dirt giving penalties to ALL defenses AND offensive penalties means that the two comes out pretty even from a "passive effects" angle. If you're complaining about getting "owned" in combat after being hobbled, you were being "owned" in combat after being dirt kicked just as much. Go look again on your own logs to see how many hits were attempted landed by both you and your attacker before/after dirt kicking, and before/after hobble.

The differences between hobble and dirt kick:

* Dirt kicking locks the opponent in their current weapon type AND combat style (since they can't change equipment), and ALSO prevents them from recovering from disarm. On a side note, dirt/disarm is still sadly underused currently. If someone switches to a superior style to hobble you, however, there's nothing preventing you from switching to a counter-superior style or to an advantageous weapon type to retaliate while he's in hobble lag (using combat style skills, dirt/disarm, etc).
* Dirt kicking can't be prevented by weapon ward.
* Dirt kicking is useful against everyone, whereas hobble can only strip dodge for classes that can actually dodge.
* Dirt kicking lasts longer.
* Dirt kicking does NOT require weapon type advantage OR combat style superiority -- it's always-use, unlike hobble.
* Dirt kicking allows initiation, which can mean an opponent can be locked into a disadvantage right from the onset (as befitting rogues). By contrast, hobble cannot and must be used mid-combat, which means you can have a chance to do something before a hobble lands, whether it's by initiating combat to begin with or by retaliating while your opponent is lagged from murder/whatever.
* Dirt kicking and hobble both have governing stats -- dex for dirt and str for hobble. However, having a low str lowers your hobble success rate AND shortens its duration even if you succeed. On the other hand, a human thief enjoys the same extended dirt duration as a halfling thief once a dirt is landed. Remember, dirt kicking already has a longer base duration than hobble even assuming a 25-str hobble, to say nothing of a 17-str hobble.
* Dirt kick is class-biased. Rogues dirts last longer and they also rub out dirt faster; non-rogues dirt last shorter and it also takes them longer to rub dirt out. Hobble is non-class-biased. This means that rogues have resistance to their own method of defense-lowering, which fighters do not with hobble (they're hobbled just as easily as rogues and it lasts just as long). Dex-based warriors can neither dirt well (short dirt duration) nor hobble well (short hobble duration), though they can switch between the two more easily than can str-based warriors.

Looking at the above list, it's obvious that hobble has more than enough restrictions and checks so that it isn't nearly as "powerful" as most of you are making it out to be, and this is also reflected by the fact that from the fights I've seen, you guys are using dirt a lot more than hobble when using classes that have both. If hobble is so powerful, why are you guys still spamming dirt?

The new change giving concentration a chance to improve damage vs hobbled opponents remedies the fact that before the change, successful hobbles to rendered concentration and combat styles useless -- there's no dodge to overcome when an opponent is hobbled. This concentration change allows hobble and concentration/superior combat style to stack properly, the same way that dirt and weapon type advantage stacks for rogues.

Lastly, regarding the concentration-flee skills: remember that they require hobble AND superior combat style AND multiple proficiency checks, and can be easily countered to boot. Davairus already mentioned countering it by simply switching your combat style before fleeing (remember, hobble does nothing to prevent this the same way dirt kicking does). I'll give you another by adding that you can simply dirt kick your target to allow you to flee safely -- or, if you can't dirt kick, weapon ward. And you can add your own to this list.

And frankly, you will face far more sidesteps or overheads than warrior skills like spin bash, winding kick, pincher attack, sidearm smash, and stun volley combined. The vast majority of you, in fact, have never seen had even one of these skills performed against you yet. Many of these warrior skills are only used under very, very specific circumstances, which is why it's not even worth giving them their own skill proficiency (which is why we made them dependent instead on proficiencies in existing skills). You can't gauge a class's power simply based on how many skills have been added to them recently. Don't forget that before the changes, warriors were one of the worst and most skill-impoverished classes on AR, and they required more changes and skill additions to make them competitive.

Okay, my ride's here, so it's off to my meeting.
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