Some help if you can

[Stiehl26]

I used to play here 3 or 4 years ago, and I have been back sporadically since then. It's been at least a year since I was last back, and I have noticed that many changes have happened. I have read the help files extensively and I am back pseudo playing. I have a fair amount of questions, and I apologize if I seem dense, its mostly because I am. For easier responses I will number my questions. Any answers, as long as they are factual, would be greatly appreciated.

1. Weapon Ward - What exactly does this do to me if I am a melee class and how is this countered?

2. Weapon advantage/disadvantage - I do have a prompt (with the help of someone on the game) that shows me some colors for my offhand/mainhand. What I am not sure is how much of a big deal is that. I really want to play a thief, as this was the profession I am most familiar with, but it seems that if I am tanking, my only real recourse is to use a dagger. Counterbalance and sidestep, are these the primary thief skills that I am making them out to be? More information on this subject, and how it directly pertains to a thieves' skills would be most helpful.

3. I thought that I saw in one of the posts on the board that even if a player has not had a blackjack attempt on him, and he has adrenaline, he can not be blackjacked. Is this true? It used to be there was a blackjack timer after a successful or failed attempt, which was limiting but fair. I am just wondering if all someone needs to do is attack a mob and then be blackjack immune (I'm guessing it is not that easily avoided).

4. I made a neutral human thief, which I did to get acclimated to the game again. It is my understanding that for roleplaying purposes I can not really initiate PK because of my Ethos, is this true? My other question is this, endgame, is there a better option for a thief. I used to love this game for the pk aspect, invariably, the reasons I always left was the hypocrisy of some immortals, I dont even know who they are so I am not pointing fingers. If there were 2 characters, both with the exact same rank and items-hitroll/damroll/etc, one being human and one being elf/drow, would there be a definitive difference in lethality? Does a higher dexterity translate to more succesful skill useage(higher average backstab, sidestep, etc)?

I have many more questions, but I wont put them all down now. I thank you in advance for your time in reading this. Also, if anyone has an applicable thief guide, or useful tips, those would be fantastic as well.

[Erlwith]

[Esura]

1. Weapon ward's weakness is its short duration (0-5 hours or so, depending on level/int of the mage. Something like that, anyway.)

2. If you are tanking mobs, your best option is probably dagger for the powerful sidestep + counterbalance. However, counterbalance and sidestep are definitely NOT the "primary" thief skills. Your primary combat skills are: sidestep (for when you're using a dagger and counterbalanced), clobber (when you're using a shaft), and uncanny attack (when you're using exotic). These combat skills should only be used with weapon advantage. Of the three, sidestep is arguably the worst, and clobber seems to be the most popular.

Of course, these are just your combat attacks. Thieves are not primarily a combat class, though they can be. Your REAL staples are probably going to be hide, blackjack, steal, pilfer, and double backstab. Come to think of it, you'll probably be using those skills in that order.

3. What Erlwith said.

4. You shouldn't go kill some random person just because you want to. I think you could get away with blackjack/steal/pilfering somebody without killing them, RP reason being "I'm a thief. What do thieves do? We steal stuff. Why? Because we like having lots of stuff. Nothing personal." I think a suitable time for a neutral thief to kill someone is in any situation where, if you were the main character in a movie, it would be appropriate for you to say, "Alright, now it's personal." ...that's pretty subjective, isn't it? Oh well.

[Blarg]

Welcome back.

1) Weapon ward will prevent disarms, sidesteps, clobbers,and uncanny attacks from a thief. Also, protective shield will prevent dirt kicks.

2) Sidestep is usually the best choice for a thief tanking a mob unless it holds a weapon, then you use whatever give you a weapon advantage.

3) Adrenaline will reduce the chance of a victim being blackjacked. If your thief has adrenaline it will be harder to hide and harder to blackjack.

4) If anything, the changes since you left have evened the playing field for some race/class combos that were lacking. For example, Gnomes aren't as gimp and higher con/lower dex thieves are better than halfling/drow for outlasting hobble. Depends on your playing style, but as any thief, you'll learn to HATE hobble.

[MrCarb]

You were asking about skills that rely on dexterity. I don't think any of the new combat skills do, nor backstab. Dirt kick and Pry do, however, and they're pretty godamn important.

The blackjack thing: It depends on YOUR adrenaline. Aggressive adrenaline decreases your chances (but doesn't nullify them). If an opponent has been recently blackjacked the same cooldown period applies as before.

I think you'll find the biggest kick in the teeth is hide: Now that is dependant on adrenaline too, and you can't sleep while hiding.

All in all, it's much more fun playing a thief these days. It's easier to kill with a thief (the rogue dirt kick and combat skills are deadly) but much easier to die too due to all the adrenaline stuff and hobble. But that's the way we like it, right?

[Stiehl26]

Hmm, well, do thieves really have much going for them then? I am getting more confused the more I read. Weapon advantage this adrenaline that. If I have adrenaline, what does that cut the hide percentage to if my hide was mastered? Is it as effective as say 90% hide...or is it more like 50% hide. Do rangers have the same nerfs applied as thieves with their camoflauge? It seems like a fight would degenerate to 2 people sheathing 1 weapon to draw another to give advantage which then the other person would change weapons to give them an advantage. Are mage classes the way to go then? It seems like that is toss up weapon ward and whatever other defences they get and spam spells? Do mages have a harder time casting invisibility when they have positive adrenaline. I would think it would be much harder for a mage to recite incantations all psyched up (adrenaline) than it would be for a thief to do what is the first thing I would think the thief would do when faced by danger, hide. Terrains making a difference I would 100% agree with, the no sleeping while hidden I could live with (I had no idea that hide didnt work when sleeping...glad I found that out now since I had been "hiding" when sleeping all of the time).

MrCarb - you mentioned rogue dirt kick and combat skills are deadly... what about the rogue dirt kick makes it better than a warriors dirt kick? The thief skills, besides sidestep (which I'm now told isnt that good in PvP) , dont seem to do much damage comparatively. Is there a race that is known to be the "best" pking thief? Again, thank you for all input.

[The Zealot]

There's a lot of complaint at the moment that thieves are underpowered compared to warriors. I think a lot of that comes from the fact that we haven't really seen one of the top players using a thief effectively yet.

Adrenaline can do nasty things to hide. None of the Imps have given exact numbers for how heinous the effect of aggressive adrenaline is, but there's a fairly decent chance that you won't be able to hide. I know my thief got caught a few times, thinking I was hidden with aggressive adrenaline. I don't know the figures, but it's probably not something to rely on for an escape. Yes, Rangers (except half-elf rangers up to level 49, who have a special legacy) have the same nerfs to camo.

The wield, counterwield, counter-counterwield dynamic you describe is a bit like how melee fights were until recently. You'd wield for advantage, perform a skill straight away. The major problem was that this allowed warriors to switch weapons, and then use hobble instantly. Hobble is a killer for pretty much any dex-based race or class. It was essentially an insta-win tactic against rogues.

However, we have wield lags now. There's a thread somewhere that explains the exact amount of lag to expect, but basically there's a delay between wielding a weapon, and being able to do anything else. Rogues are less affected by this lag than other classes. That means, you have the advantage when it comes to wielding.

This is coupled with rogue dirt, which is appreciably different to that of a warrior. Rogue dirt kick lasts longer, and rogues who are dirted rub out the dirt a lot quicker. Believe me, when I fight rogues, and they land a dirt it seems to take forever to wear off. I don't know how much you've played recently, but this is rather a big deal. It stops someone switching weapons, so you can enjoy superiority (and use combat skills). It also lags them when they flee, so it makes chasing them down easier. Dirt is a powerful weapon for a thief.

The rogue skills don't all do that much damage. Sidestep is a nuke, and you can use it when the opponent is close to death. It has, like 2.5 rounds lag or something though, so be careful. It also trips, which can be nice.

Uncanny attack pretty much sucks in PK. It doesn't do that much damage. It will rake the opponent's primary weapon for a round (and cost you two round lag). I'm sure there are ways to use it effectively though.

Clobber is the killer though. A successful two-handed clobber can dirt and disarm your opponent in one move. That means, not only is he fucked without a weapon, if he flees, he's just going to eat lag. That's the one you're going to see rogues whoring most.

As for race, I don't know. There are some discussions on that going on at the moment. I think it depends on your playing style. Drows are looking like a good choice, with autosneak and high dex. Duergars have some nasty racial legacies.

[MrCarb]

Rogue dirt kicks last longer than other classes, and rogues rub dirt out faster. Since fleeing while blinded now lags you, these bonuses are a hige asset. In fact, after blackjack, steal and pry I'd say the dirt kick is the best thing about being a thief.

Sure, it WOULD make rp sense for mages to fail spells due to adrenaline, but this is purely a pk balance thing. You remember how thieves used to abuse blackjack/hide in the old days?

Regarding the whole paper-rock-stone dynamic: My first reaction was the same as yours (I really though it sounded ridiculous) and yes there is alot of swithing, but you'll be suprised how well it works. Gaining weapon (or combat for fighters) superiotity is important, but you have to be forevever considering it wighted against other skills and priorities. You'll just have to play to get a feel for that.

Let's face it; anything beats Dirt, trip, trip, trip, G all corpse.

As for the 'best thief race'...well, if that were obvious, that would be a design flaw in AR. In my huble opinion; Halfling, or Drow if you want to be evil. Dex is important.

[Davairus]

[MrCarb]

First thing; I hadn't read Zeolot's post before I posted, and some of mine is thus rendered redundant (Zeolot's was a good post).

Secondly; I fancy a Halfling to sprodoyncaly PWNICATE a human even at a two or three rank disadvantage (blackjack is the only thing rank is hugely important for, and I'd rather get in less succesful blackjacks with a halfling but be able to rape people's gear with pry when I do). The only thing is you can't be evil, and an evil thief is probably more fun in most people's eyes. It's all about the dirt, people. Dirt and Pry.

PWNICATE: To do bad things to.
Sprodoyncal: Good, or large, as in "I think we know what we mean, when we say it's a sprodoyncal day."

I even split the infinitive for emphasis. Looking back on this post, I can't help but be struck by the phrase "I fancy a Halfling".

[MrCarb]

One last thing. What you were saying about spell casters...

You would find it easier to play one as they haven't changed in quite such a fundamental way. Just keep weapon ward up.

On the other hand, you might be a bit miffed when you find out that your new shaman doesn't have enchanced damage, has a gimped shield block, can't cure in combat, can only cast harm once every 24 hourds and casts dispel magic as a mal. The world you knew is gone, poor traveller.

[Stiehl26]

You guys have been a tremendous help. I may actually try a drow thief, as it seems that with the autosneak and high dex, I will have a lot more (or at least waste a lot less) movement and hopefully I will be able to purchase some hps via extra practices. I was feeling a little pissy about the whole hide/adrenaline thing, but with Dav's description of the different types of adrenaline I feel a "little" better about it, though I don't feel that hide should be affected at all when you, yourself have been attacked. I actually don't feel like adrenaline has a place in hide at all, but not being my game, c'est la vi. Oh, I have one other comment, not that I expect to have any affect on any decisions that have lead the game to where it is now...what the heck happened to backstabbing with a spear? I would think that if it was deemed that spears were too powerful for backstabbing, perhaps they were too powerful to begin with and the stats on the items, rather than their useability for an entire profession, should have been nerfed. There have always been 2 weapon types I instantly think of when referring to a thief and backstabbing, daggers AND spears.

One last thing, do you guys see a considerable difference in lethality between a drow and an elf? The stats seem comparable. Also, do halflings get bonuses for thief skills? The low strength seems like it would be hard to overcome, especially for one who wants lots of shiny things.

[Xerties]

If you master hide you'll have very little problem hiding with adrenaline.

[The Zealot]

[MrCarb]

This is pure speculation, but i imagine thieves lost the whole backstabbing with spears thing because spears have a decent parry, and thieves are supposed to make themselves a bit vulnerable when they backstab. Also, when I imagine someone backstabbing with a pair of spears it looks silly.

[Davairus]