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Stiehl26
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 693
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:24 pm Post subject: Shaman: Fire Giant or Human? |
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I am hoping to get some insight into the differences in the races and play style between a fire giant and human shaman. I basically was wondering if people, as a whole, felt that for a casual player (one who can devote about 8-10 hours a week) one race is better than the other for playability and pkability.
I have looked back and saw that both Vrykhul (human) and Quar (fire giant) were quite succesful, though Quar was much more so. At rank 50 would the probable low skill/spell % learned and ice vulnerability be more frustrating than a "normal" (non-masochistic) person could stand?
I understand that I could rank both races to 50 and try it out, though I may be dead of old age before that actually happened, so anything to at least point me in a direction would be much appreciated. |
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Groq Immortal
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 500 Location: Downstate NY
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I've played everything but fire giant shaman just because you'd need to put a decent amount of time into training the core spells I think. Drow I didn't like at all just not my style no hp what so ever but learns like a bastard. Human was all right it's fast to rank and not to bad to train. Duergar was by far my favorite, nice strength, nice health, the vuln is a bit nasty but I think the hp and str make up for it. So if I had to pick i'd go duergar again. For a new person trying a shaman i'd go human just to learn it and see if you like it. Trying something out for the first time and having a vuln you'll probably get frustrated instead of actually sticking with it. |
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rabidgecko
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 194
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Shaman: Fire Giant or Human? |
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Stiehl26 wrote: |
I have looked back and saw that both Vrykhul (human) and Quar (fire giant) were quite succesful, though Quar was much more so. At rank 50 would the probable low skill/spell % learned and ice vulnerability be more frustrating than a "normal" (non-masochistic) person could stand?
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Fire giant is certainly more challenging. A bit more hp and str, but much lower mana and a nasty vuln. Quar was pip, he did it for a challenge, and pretty much owns with whatever combo he plays. Human is certainly easier to play and rank up. |
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Slade Emissary
Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 666
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Your only choices here are human or duergar. They aren't terribly different, so pick whichever sounds more interesting/fun. Fire/drow are completely out of the question. P.S. Quar is rolling over in his grave at the idea of being associated with pip. Everyone knows that it was Makhan. |
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Erlwith
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1626
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Shaman: Fire Giant or Human? |
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rabidgecko wrote: |
Quar was pip, |
Wrong.
Anyway, just real quick. Quar is a highly skilled player, combined with stupids fighting him like noobs (using fiery daggers, slashing weapons or not wearing mals) in what seemed like almost every fight made him nearly undefeatable. check the logs on invokation and you'll find *most* of them were against “scrubs.”
Anyway imo which race you go with depends on your skill level and play style. Humans are going to be the easier pick. They've got balanced stats, a decent endgame hp/mana level, a very nice pk range, and no vulns among others. This makes them a good option. Look at Vrykhul who was alright with a shaman but was able to stand at the top of the list on just his ability to flee/heal against anyone decent and beat on scrubs.
Fire giants are going to be more difficult but the payout will be higher. Short ward, major vulns, low stats (for a shaman anyway), lower mana at end game and less trains to turn into them, a much slower rate of practice and a much slower skill gain. I easily spent 150 hours in a month just getting my spells to a *decent* level on my giant cleric after training them to 29%. For a casual player, this sort of thing is not appealing. You inevitably make the choice between training skills to 75% and wasting a buttload of trains/pracs which you will no doubt later want for mana/move/hp or spending hours and hours watching the painfully slow giant skill gain. these are just a few cons. However on the bright side, you have a lot of str and given time and patience you easily become a warrior with heals – and once you do get your skills mastered they compliment well the fire giants strengths and weaknesses.
at the end of the day humans are the easy choice, they'll be easy to play with, but lack a lot of lethality. Fire giants will be much more difficult, you'll have to stay on your ward, keep yourself healed and spend a lot of time murder/fleeing. But you'll do a ton of damage, have a ton of hp and lots of natural resistances (which will come in handy when nubs use their flaming longsword against you). your knowledge of the land is also going to make a huge difference. A pimped out fire giant shaman > pimped out human shaman, and your ability to flee and heal will make a fire giant a lot easier whereas imo a human shaman relies on this just a little bit less.
so my thoughts, for the average player a human shaman will be easiest. for those just a little more skilled and looking for a challenge or just for those who want to try something new and fun, fire giant shaman can be ultra pimp.
Edit: I completely disagree with drow shamans. Put them in Justice, or leave them without a cabal and I think they can shine. |
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rabidgecko
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 194
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Who was Quar? I was taking a break from AR at that point and never got to know his story, but who played him? |
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Slade Emissary
Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 666
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Shaman: Fire Giant or Human? |
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Erlwith wrote: |
Wall of text |
Eh.. don't get carried away. Plenty of average people overall (which by the way I would define as like a Cadarel, who was usually geared well, frosty/icicle, special guard, etc. Not that many Karalinso type noobs actually), but plenty of 1vs2's, 3's, even 4, and some good ones in there. Everything isn't necessarily on invo. The better the player, the longer the fight and usually the more boring fight since its mostly space creation, ticks, healing, and murders for 800 pages = no log post. Nothing super amazing, but most others behind it easily pull a sub 33% efficiency in the same spots and thats probably generous. Not intended as a self fluff post, just what it is.
I don't know what the perceived benefits to fire are other than it forces certain weapon selections on opponent (a disadvantage really since they're so common and shamans have no type/style skills to take advantage of it). Strength I guess is nice for offense but they have bad dex to help swing that back to earth on offense, and likewise bad wisdom for defense. Its all pretty average. Really you just have a shaman with below average HP+Mana total, massive vulns (less able to use mana for mals and general spells since its all going to healing, so you're murdering a lot warrior style), horrendous weapon ward (biggest problem of all), bad skill learning, subpar cause spell line, yadda yadda. Oversize 1h wield and high carry capacity are nice I guess..?
I think you're overestimating STR ~ there is no reward payday at the end of the road specific to fires, a pimp shaman is a pimp shaman (if anything a pimp fire has an asterisk next to it for exploitable shit to use against them that downgrades them). Reminds me of halfling cleric; that got quite pimp in a hurry with no STR to speak of. I don't think str or dex matter very much in overall offense unless you're talking about warrior skills and other stuff that specifically uses it, or hit and dam which directly come from it (necro rend). People without enhanced damage typically do prefer damroll to hit yes so you could get higher total dam if you were trying to max it, but thats a pretty minor thing. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10351 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: |
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I would take human because you said casual - that race requires less exp to rank and learns its spells faster. That's the best reason for you to play human. |
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Vhrael Immortal
Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 1085 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: |
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That and stats are better for spellcasting (wis, int).
And though it's not a huge problem for most experienced players, humans not having to deal with vulns is a big plus. |
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Mahkan
Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 264 Location: The Interwebs
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Slade wrote: |
Everyone knows that it was Makhan. |
HELLO |
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Davor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 229 Location: Seeogra
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Most have mentioned Quar had superb player behind him, he is rather bad example to observe. Players such as Slade and Pip usually pull of really high ratios/percentages regardless of what they play.
Fire shaman is slower to rank, real pain to train (no 1. reason i don't play fire giants), lousy casting stats, have two exploitable weaknesses. End result is not that big hp and poor mana.
Upsides are scarce, better parry (str based if I am correct) which is not bad at all for shamans, resistance to certain types of damage, big weight carrying (that is extremely nice, cause you can carry lots of extra gear and shift between sets), and of course 1H oversized weapons.
All things considered I would say cons easily outweight the pros.
Also when considering Quar you must take into account his generous (and very correct) use of cabal supplies, casual player won't have those at hand, that further handicaps fire giant shaman.
Human shamans in hands of an average player are great fun. I havent played for more then two years prior to making Vrykhul (we don't count odd logins to check if its still there), it is exactly human shaman's massive ability to survive that allowed bunch of mistakes go unpunished. No weaknesses is a great compensation for lack of "legacies", and to that overall decent stats, great pk range and qucik leveling. Unlike fire giant shaman a human shaman can be quite effective with mere two praccing skills.
I will strongly suggest making a human shaman for casual play.
I don't understand the venom in Erlwith's comments:
1. Quar basically fought anyone he could
2. Flee/heal is basic shaman tactic
while i had my ass brutally handed to me here and there I would hardly call fine number of people I beaten scrubs. |
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Stiehl26
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 693
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you guys very much for your replies. They were very helpful and I have created a human shaman and I will see how I can do with them. I always find myself to be "pleasant" when playing...meaning I dont rock the boat nor PK to heavily...and never aggresively. I really would like to change that, at least for 1 character. I'll see how it goes. Thanks again for all of the info. |
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Erlwith
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1626
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:40 am Post subject: |
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It's not venom. You don't get bonus points for being able to flee/heal. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it really isn't hard to do at all, and thus to me doesn't warrant that much 'skill' credit. I don't claim my shamans are so pimp because it's easy to survive as a shaman, especially with that tactic being the primary one. It's just a reality check, just like invokers don't get kudos for spamming hellstream over and over and over again even if it wins them some fights or thieves don't get praises for permablackjack.
As far as Quar, if anything I'm only praising him. I don't see where I was vicious or insulting to him at all. Again, just a reality check. The majority of logs I read on invokation were of people fighting him with physical weapons, fighting without mal saves and getting blinded etc., or just using pisspoor strategy. This is not to say the player behind Quar isn't good, but some times these things speak for themselves.
And Slade a shaman with 25 str or what have you will be able to wield better weapons (unholy mace, w/e), have a ton more supplies(every save, every vuln, every savebreak, and anything else they need while a human is just trying to hold on to his water cube and effigy at the same time), be able to wield 2handers in 1 hand and also ipso facto will do more damage. Let's not forget a shaman's speciality, making his opp. useless. so while dealing with major vulns, they also have a very nice way to suppliment it. I'm not overestimating str, but in my opinion a 4 or 5 str difference makes a large impact in pvp, granted though some classes will benefit more than others. |
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Nakachi
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 221
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Everytime I see Davor post and my peripherals pick up his forum image, I think he is a nazi for some reason. Just throwing that out there.
Human shaman is great, but hp is still not what you would hope for. Duergar shaman is fun and more hp. Either one of those two would be best for a beginner shaman. |
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rabidgecko
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 194
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:27 am Post subject: |
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I'd suggest human, I had a great time with mine and there are no vulns you have to deal with. Also, Davor's signature is a commie symbol |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10351 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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That symbol might be associated with communism, but it doesn't at all symbolize that. Hammer and sickle is more of a representation of Russian pride and their industrial diligance, and military might. Thats like all flags, they stand for their country. Its just unfortunate that a few people in history became dictators and resulting in the ignorant west rubbishing what it really stood for.. |
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rabidgecko
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 194
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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It's kinda like the confederate flag...might be an innocent symbol to those who take it in that mindset but it also carries connotations |
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Nakachi
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 221
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:31 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't actually saying when I look at the flag, I was just saying out of the corner of my eye. It looks normal and non-offensive when I actually bring it to the center of my eyes. I dunno what it is... Just every damn time though lol.. |
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Erlwith
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1626
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just waiting for some asshat to start a completely new thread with some diatribe "proving" Dav wrong. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10351 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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The confederate flag does stand for racism now actually. It doesn't compare to the hammer and sickle (farming tools representing hard work) its just some yankee XXXXXX lynching shit. It has gone the way of the swastika. That's what happens when racism gets involved. Communism is an economic idealogy. |
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