New Set Idea

[RebornShadows]

also i was just thinking about a new set but I dont know just a random thought.

Imperial Guard
Items needed: Imperial Chest Plate, Imperial Leggings, Imperial Arm Plates, Imperial belt, Imperial boots and Imperial Gauntlets.

Grants at 50:
-100 AC
-10 Saves vs Magic
-5 dex
-4 hit
+3 dam
+2 str
=====================================
not sure if this good or bad or even if needs some tweaking so everyone dont grab this set.


Thanks Dav for clearing it up i understand more or less anyways

[Davairus]

Having looked at treant thews for a pretty long time today, I couldn't find a glaring issue with it. Its a useful set to re-equip with because its a sure upgrade over the usual mithril/red dragon combo, but your -8 dex is so problematic that you can't fully exploit the strength bonus without rares. When stuck with non-rares, you also have to wear gimp items to fix the penalty, further bringing the potential down. It would have serious potential if you could actually get easy rares with saves/dex or hitroll/dex damroll/dex, but that isn't the case. Even the top dex-gambles have damroll drawbacks that work against the benefit of the set. There's little wiggle room on item options with that -8 dex. If you want saves you have to lower your dex to equip those saves (its worth noticing that thews +con offsets some of the saves -con, but dex is a bad stat to have below maxed).

In other words, the quality of the set comes at the expense of versatility - its really hard to switch things out.

I did change a "spiderweb sash" rare today from hit/2 dex to new stat with maledictive break and an *odd* dex value. This doesn't lower the usefulness of the item at all, but it breaks away the obvious hit/dam synergy with treant thews (in fact the -hp associated with a malbreak undoes another treant thews bonus) and provides a more specialized purpose for the item - necro/shaman/ninjas of all alignments. i.e. the classes that will cause the most problems for people in thews. =p The odd dex stat will help ensure the player has a problem with the dex that low level crap rares doesn't patch up. The gimpy leather bandit belt can already be used with the set to fix dex penalty, and there is another less crummy dex belt out there in my circus area somewhere, so I think we're covered on belts to go with thews.

I think the reason you are seeing players still using treant thews so commonly though is because the mentality is to just get hit/dam. The hit/dam is high enough to require you needing about 5 or 6 top-end gambled (alternatively, 3 or 4 top-end rares) to exceed the bonuses of the set at level 50. That isn't to say it can't be exceeded - it most certainly can - but when you start with thews, its a set which takes hours of work to get your gear to a point where new gear is strong enough to advocate *not* using it. Its a viable set at 50. Thews is behind the limits of whats possible with dedicated gambling, for certain, and definitely behind what rares and forging bring you to. Also, with the Keepers cabal, those guys have a much more difficult time than anyone else to break the set, since they don't get to use any rare items. I just don't see a lot of alternatives out there for those guys.

[Insom]

How about making more sets like thews but with some variety. For example keeper rogues probably wouldn't like the minus dex so much so make one that's minus strength instead?

[Davairus]

Don't we already have shape of the wraith for rogues?

[_Clifton_]

Evil chaotic only because of the black leather.

[Davairus]

I'm ok with that. Play evil if you want to be stronger is suitable to require for a rogue, with all that neutral chaotic controversy we get.

[Faelon]

Don't know if more have been implemented, but I would like to see a few more goodie/neutral sets.

[Slade]

What does Shape set do?

[Insom]

Again i might be wrong here but isnt thews super easy to get? Shape of the wraith set is difficult to get because one component of it is just about always out.

[Davairus]

I think variety comes in having different alignments with different choices, not in providing a lot of options for everybody. The thews bonus is 4/4 hit dam which is a balanced bonus for a balanced alignment. Don't see why we need a -str /hitroll version when people are only going to use the -dex/damroll version. Remember people go for damroll, not hit. Especially rogues because of wanting to see giant backstab and sidestep damage. Besides, because of the +4 str you can get a more balanced hit/dam, if you fix dex the smart way (4 dex -1 dam gambles).

As for its ease to get, I've already spelled out for you that its just a very nice starting point. A properly geared 50 will steamroll non-keepers in that shit. Other non-thews with similar hit/dam have more flexibility to wear saves against spellcasters. It'll take time to gamble the things that give thews its good reputation. If you just take this mentality that hit/dam is all that matters then thews is amazing... in reality its just a very good set that's pretty inflexible.

[Davairus]

New set add today for evils.. its called "patchwork horror" and is made up of various kinds of skin. The bonuses may seem a bit underwhelming but try it out before you spam sac on all those crappy items... also, I didn't want another treant thews on my hands so I've made sure there's ample drawbacks and a lot of garbage items in the set. I don't mind it being buffed a bit later to avoid "too gimp" problem, since I usually make things too gimp starting out.

[Insom]

Dav, did you make sets with the idea that it will be limited by the weapon? I saw a lot of the sets require a specific weapon so it actually is limited to a few classes. Was this on purpose?

[Mummy]

Um, not to be contrary, but I got an onyx gambled with four dex and it took away I think int? Maybe wis. Not damage though... next time I'm on, I'll copy an appraise for you.

[Slade]

The nominal bonuses are just that, and it annoys me to see comments along the lines of 'well MB is 6/6 but no one is talking about that'. Sets can only be compared in total against each other. TT is nice above and beyond what it shows you, because every single piece in the set is already a useful item. My opinion is that 1 hit/dam plus a stat is something you can grudgingly accept to balance, 2 hit/dam is decent (aka these pieces), 3 is outstanding. Lets see how these shake out.



Malicious Beast
11 items
net:
105 hp
8 hitroll
11 damroll
1 dex
3 str
infravision

Summary:
Average per piece
.72 HIT
1.0 DAM
9.5 HP
(overall set perks 1 dex, 3 str)
(heavy)
(few slots left for saves gear)
(infravision)

Thoughts:
1.72 Hit/Dam and 9.5 HP with no stat liabilities is not bad at all.

Extension:
Ignoring need for saves, lets take advantage of the stats by adding average items (you could do better but 2 HD -1 stat items are pretty much the baseline) dark-mithril rings, tainted boots, and mortuary lamp
we net 2 dam, 6 hitroll, -1 dex, -3 str, making that:

1.80 Hit/Dam and 7.0 HP per piece (15), infravision, with no extra stats




Treant Thews
8 items
net:
30 hp
4 hitroll
20 damroll
4 strength
4 constitution
-8 dexterity

Summary:
Average per piece
.50 HIT
2.5 DAM
3.0 HP
(overall set perks 4 str, 4 con)
(overall set liability -8 dex)
(heavy)
(few slots left for saves gear)

Thoughts:
3.00 Hit/Dam and 3.0 HP. Quite impressive, though dex aid must be factored in to properly compare a set like this.

Extension:
Lets add a few of the common dex helpers (except stone since I am not including that in any of them): leather bandit belt, chameleon poncho, and one +4 dex -1 dam onyx light source (I hope this item is not too outlandish for comparison sake). This nets 8 dex, -1 dam, making our new overall:

2.09 Hit/Dam and 2.73 HP per piece (11), with +4 str, +4 con.

We'd still have slots left over that could take advantage of that str, too. Lets do that by throwing on a couple dwarven signet / dark-mightil rings, and a couple teeth necklaces (net 8 hitroll, -4 str). OR you could use those slots on deflective items, lets say 7 SVS, -1 con each (this sounds really expensive frankly and will take awhile), netting 28 SV, -4 con

2.06 Hit/Dam and 2.00 HP per piece (15), with +4 con. (FIGHTER SPEC)
1.53 Hit/Dam and 2.00 HP per piece (15), with 28 save all, and +4 STR (SAVES SPEC)





Everyday Hodgepodge (tainted/black-tear, living wood/mithril, goldenscale/silver, ETC., all the same numbers just the emphasis shifts towards either hit or dam. A few basic rares reasonable here)
15 items (ignoring little boosts like 1 int on hat, 6 mv on claw ring, etc)
flame from the underworld 2 dam
red claw signet ring 1 hit, 1 dex
dwarven golden ring 2 hit, -1 str
teeth necklace 2 hit, -1 str
black plate neckguard 2 dam, -1 dex
hunting hat 1 hit, 1 dex
black laminated armor 1 hit, 2 dex
red dragon arm guards 2 dam, -1 dex
spiked gauntlets 2 dam, -1 dex
dark oak leg plates 2 dam, -1 dex
black-tear boots 1 dam, 1 str
thick fur wil. coat 2 hit
black-tear girth 1 dam, 1 str
titanium bracer 1 dam, 1 str
bracer of dark thorns 2 hit, -1 str

net:
13 damroll
11 hitroll

Summary:
Average per piece
.87 HIT
.73 DAM
(flexibility for better rares, swapping in saves or breaks, etc)

Thoughts:
1.60 Hit/Dam per piece. Wow! Comes up quite short and really shows the value of using a nice basic set, unless you are going to start killing or gambling your way to stuff that will eclipse sets like 3 HD items. Obviously there are set cons to consider (not flexible at all, prone to pry/stream, etc.) but they still look rather appealing.




Final Summary post extensions (will plus or minus a little depending on personal items of choice), at LEVEL 50 (this is an important point as hodgepodge might do well prior to that):

Treant Thews - 2.06 Hit/Dam and 30 HP (15 items), with +4 con. (FIGHTER SPEC)
Treant Thews - 1.53 Hit/Dam and 30 HP (15 items), with 28 save all, and +4 STR (SAVES SPEC)
Malicious Beast - 1.80 Hit/Dam and 105 HP (15 items), infravision
Everyday Hodgepodge - 1.60 Hit/Dam (15 items)

TT and MB both look pretty decent, TT maybe a little bit more so. Nothing scary overpowering either way and no big discrepancies (aside from hodgepodge).


.

[Insom]

Slade, give us a break down of some of the harder sets to get like Xanthak's set and the super negatives of wearing the set without it complete.

[Slade]

I'm a hodgepodge guy.. I don't think I've ever actually personally worn any set other than newbie training, guild or cabal issue. If people post spoilers on set effects and the stats of each individual item are known we can figure it out.

[Davairus]

Don't overlook the save vs mal on the mithril items - its what makes them the best of the non-rares and why they aren't in sets.



After a long reflection tonight, I've made the travelers cloak for goods ONLY and the dark-mithril rings for evils ONLY. These items used to be for all aligns. I think the rings were particularly problematic to have non-evils accessing because they allow you to balance stats so easily on eq and stack up a big hitroll. Its rough with goods already having both bless spells and golden dragonscale for hitroll, and especially with thews with its +str bonuses. I would rather neutrals have to work for gambled rings to take advantage of that set,. Tthey can obviously just gamble a 4 dex belt to replace the bandit belt, then swap the brown cloaks for teeth necklace for a super hitroll bonus. With the additional requirement to gamble hitroll rings to take full advantage of the thews bonus, however, milking the rest of the bonus is hard work.

In your "hodgepodge" neutral suit you dont need to worry about arming your ring slot with hitroll, so this wont be affected . There's dwarven golden rings which are mathematically similar, but probably out of the question for a thews guy because of -dex.


You will find in gambling that damroll is a lot easier to get at Pel and Aanam. This is because hitroll is actually a slightly more valuable stat than damroll for melee attacks and we don't want to just throw it out in large amounts as easily.

[_Clifton_]

the reason malicious beast isn't used is because it's a huge liability for pvp against mage/clerics. You have 4 slots free. You can use two of those to get saves for a whopping total of -20. But for boots, it's not really all that common. The moment you need decent saves, you can say buh bye to 100hp and 6/6. With thews, you can get to upwards of -40 pretty easily at the cost of dex, but since you're fighting casters, who really care?

[Gadlo]

a lot of the sets that require a weapon aren't used because its too easy for an opponent to get combat/weapon advantage (unless of course your a mage with ward) and then if you switch your weapon to regain advantage you are gimped totally (Golden Guardian, Champion Glory, Titanic Champion for instance)

and then, Titanic Champion is so heavy that only dwarf, storm giant can possibly carry, but thats fine since its really tailor made for a healer last I had it, which was shortly after the Truncheon was changed from made of water weapon to a metallic

would like to see more good aligned sets and also more non-weapon sets, as theres not many useful ones (with the exception of thews)

[Davairus]

Tinieblas