Discussion on Sidestep

[Ergorion]

Dav brought up an interesting topic in the sidestep department. No more thiefy hellstream, or fire giant ninjas (fire giant double kick would be awesome though).

[Erlwith]

Why is this even a topic...

[Faelon]

look

On this street is a large trash can, laden with the dirty remnants of last nights debacles liberally splattered all over the sides. Unscrupulous looking woman loiter about, offering suggestions for things you are not quite are possible and at basement bargain prices besides.

A Trash Can is here, attempting to hide a Fire Giant in just about the same way a window could hide how much Baer is a fruit.

[Davairus]

Don't we already have sidestep for this?

*waves nerfhammer threateningly*

[Ergorion]

Sidestep is kind of overrated.

Three round lag? Two if you're lucky?
Cancelled completely by weapon ward.
Cancelled completely by hobble.

So we've got a breakdown by class:

If you sidestep a:
Shaman/Healer/Illusionist/Invoker/Necromancer, you eat a three round lag and you do damage to yourself.

If you sidestep a:
Warrior/berserk, you get a three round lag, get hobbled, lose dodge and counterbalance.

If you sidestep a:
Thief/ninja/bard, they switch to an exotic and uncanny your ass two times in a row doing probably similar damage and raking your weapon aside multiple times.

If you sidestep a:
Dark-Knight/Paladin/ranger, you might, key word there might, actually accomplish something


What is sidestep really good for?
Gaining eq. You sidestep those mofos into submission. Get a nice ninja/healer or ninja/shaman team and you're on a roll.


Nerf stick?

[Viggs]

I so want to have sex with you

[Erlwith]

[Insom]

side step is good for kill shots...can you do wild damage on a side step?

[Stiehl26]

Sidestep is so situational it isn't really on par with other classes "primo" skills/spells. Hellstream, hobble, sanc, weapon ward, protective shield, etc are skills/spells that are not completely neutralized by another classes spells/skills. Thief, in the straight up fighting department is more of a punching bag. People argue that is all they should be so...that is about all they will amount to.

[kieros]

I think you are a little off base, thieves are situational classes. If you are able to black jack someone steal their light and boat on water they are sitting ducks. As dav said before people think rogues are so hard to play because they play them like warriors, and I am one of them. Patience is key to playing a thief, if you don't what you need to turn the tables then reload and try again. You can't expect to masspwn everyone by sidestepping to death....

[bassball]

Uh, are you asking for sidestep to have shorter lag? To be unaffected by weapon ward? Think about it for a second, every good thing has to have a downside, or it'd be totally unfair right? I mean what's it do, DEVASTATE through sanc or some shiz like that? Could you imagine that having a one round lag like sideswipe? Not gonna happen, seriously.

[Erlwith]

[Ergorion]

So mages and clerics should have weapon ward up all the time at level 50. They're going to flee and recast ward the minute it falls. Fire shamans are the most likely race/class combo you're going to catch without weapon ward because their weapon ward sucks balls. Also, there aren't many fire shamans out there so you're not going to get that opportunity often.

Hm. Rogues vs. warriors. How does a warrior pwn any rogue ever? With the exception of thieves landing blackjack and stealing/prying shit, and of course the one hit wonder, warrior dual wielding spears should pwn rogues.

Rogues can't sidestep while dual wielding, or two handed. So if they want to land sidestep, then they have to go defensive. If warrior is perma-dual wielding, then they'll get hobbled after the first sidestep if they get that lucky. I will take a warrior dual wielding spears over a rogue wielding a two-handed blade any day. No counterbalance for the rogue. Dodge is slightly worse off because spears make doding more difficult. Warriors have dodge, parry, and dual parry. Warriors have more health than the rogue.

I still think sidestep is overrated pvp. pve is wonderful.

With reference to the tripping, sidestep trips sometimes, not all the time. It also doesn't trip flying targets. Mages and clerics should be flying. Low dex warriors might also be flying and therefore be untrippable.

[Erlwith]

2 handed clobber owns dualwielded spears any day I'm pretty sure.

The rest of your post is rubbish imo. You're giving specific circumstances when sidestep wouldn't be useful, but there are plenty where it would be in PvP. Saying that fly makes trip useless, or ward makes sidestep useless is like saying saves make dispel useless. Just not true. In most cases warrior > thief/ninja, but that's not because of sidestep being too weak.

All you really need is 1 good sidestep to trash your opps HP, so if you can get it off it is well worth it. If you don't see the usefulness in that in PvP you don't PvP enough.

[Ergorion]

Erlwith, if you can't sidestep through ward, and if a mage keeps ward up all the time, then how is sidestep of any use at all?

You can land dispel through saves. You can't land sidestep through ward.


I think you're right about the two-handed clobber owning dual spears though. Double disarm would be clutch.

[Erlwith]

What's the difference between landing 1 dispel out of 25 tries against someone with high saves and waiting for that mage to get clumsy (which they all do) and slipping in for the sidestep?

Quar vs Snob is a perfect example again. In the log on invokation Quar could have easily run and warded again but he didn't and tried to pull off harm leaving the thief open for a mean sidestep which pretty much ended the fight in its tracks. Most mages even if they're on top of ward will let it fall in combat at least once in the course of a long battle. It is all about waiting for your opponent to leave an opening and seizing it.

[Master]

I didn't think that Sidestep was such a big skill. Isn't it just one of the three specialized skills? I haven't done a whole lot of PvP, so please correct me if I'm wrong and it's much more of an asset than suspected.

[Olyn]

In addition to ward, mages and clerics need to keep protective shield up or get caught with dirt kick, the rogue's deadliest skill. 9 times out of 10 when a rogue lands dirt he can switch weapons with quick wield and get the appropriate skill off. With my last rogue, I found clobber much more useful than sidestep in pvp. 2-handed for double disarm or counterbalanced for disarm and free dirt kick. I think I used sidestep primarily on paladins, dark-knights, rogues and the occasional whelp who let their ward down. Come to think of it, I think I usually waited for them to flee and had a murder ready instead of sidestepping for the finish. And of course a rogue is going to die trying to go toe to toe with a warrior. The whole point there is surprise. You make your move already advantaged so if it goes bad, you can get away before that hobble lands.

[Davairus]

It only looks terrible against mobs really, and maybe when the enemy weapon is very easy to predict (e.g. pallys with polearms, or zerks with axes)

[_Clifton_]

get that unique dagger from mordeth and you're sidestepping for ***s through sanctuary. maybe even more.