wield lags topic

[Davairus]

You can discuss it here.

Primer: Wield lag was introduced to put some necessary moderation on the switch/dirts and switch/hobbles/etc which resulted in who can use their macros the fastest wins - or of course who has the fastest connection speeds. Its "thinking time" and also supposed to suck less for rogues with their quicker reflexes.

[bassball]

I can KINDA(probably help if you explained it) see why you get lagged for changing weapons directly after fleeing. Doesn't mean I like it though. Heh.
Again I'd be able to add my input if I knew why it was changed.


As for being lagged for dual wielding ALWAYS. If that isn't a bug, then it's pretty lame. I don't understand it. And it makes it so if you flee and run around for awhile then switch weapons, you get lagged anyway, but only for dual wielding.

All I know is that the whole change totally messed with my personal fighting style, don't know about everyone else, but if there's legit reasons for it, then I can't argue against it because, "it makes me suck worse" isn't a defend able side.

[Ergorion]

There's the whole dual wield lag no matter what the conditions that I think needs looking at.

I think the lag from switching to a two-hander in the middle of combat should be slightly less than what it is now. I don't really have a concrete reason, it's just more of a gut feeling here.

This doesn't exactly fall under the wield lag, but it's similar so I think I'll mention it, the overhead crush wind-up. There's already a wind-up for windmill cleave, I don't think overhead crush should have one as well, it gives your opponent too much time to wield that shield, have you eat two-three rounds of lag and a sideswipe or two.

[Faelon]

To be honest, it makes it VERY difficult to pk as a warrior class against another warrior class. (Speaking of the Duel Wield lag). This is due to that fact that alot of battles are touch combats (in and out) and this can put a cramp on that as people have to run WAY away or risk getting pummeled in the round or two that you are lagged out.

The lagging directly after fleeing from combat bit is like was stated above, kind of lame imho, but I can see why it was done. I haven't put much thought into what this will do to the balance of warriors fighting. However, it doesn't seem to cut down overtly on the speed of a battle at any given time.

[RebornShadows]

i dislike the dual wield lag its kinda gay but the wield lag from fleeing fights I like.

I just say leave the flee lags and get rid of the dual anytime lag.

[Insom]

This might be off topic but if you want to encourage more "thought oriented" combat versus "macro oriented combat" then find a way to make the fights not so much dependent on flee/murder. No matter what type of wield lag you put in, every combat is all about flee/attack with every class.

[Stiehl26]

Just to weigh in...all of the additional combat lag is less than fun, but mildly understandable with the flee murder way that ALL combat is fought now. Any lag associated with switching weapons at any point where you have NO adrenaline should be abolished. Down with non-adrenaline weapon switching lag!!

[Arishel]

I dislike the dual wield lag anytime. It doesn't hold any significance to the fact that you can hold a primary weapon at any given point, but then you are held there for holding something in your offhand? Thumbs down from me.

On another note with wield lag, perhaps you could make it dependant on the weapons weight. If it is 5 lbs or less, no lag, if it is 10 lbs or less minimal lag, 15 lbs, etc. So you take the weight of the weapon in contrast with the races strength. The higher the strength the easier to grip, because the stronger races are more adept at being brutes than the ones that are weak in the arms, but they have higher dexterity. That is the tradeoff I would be looking for. Giants can hold weapons with more ease versus a halfling who has to muster up all he can just to wield a weapon. Maybe you can throw size into the equation also, but I think I've probably confused myself enough.

[Davairus]

Okay this is the results of analysis of the dirt & hobble skills, since my primer doesn't seem to be warming the discussion up. If your experience is different do say so.

For hobble & dirt it looks like they're skills that provide an opening to deal some nice damage (since they reduce defences respectively, and prevent fleeing).

Hobble is not actually as beefy looking as dirt to me, despite its incredibly lethal-to-rogue-seeming effect, what you might miss is the fact that dirt kicks reduce your chance to hit through being blind, and not just worsen your defences. There's a double edge to that. That explains why hobble should have more effect on defences than dirt. In addition, you'll have time to switch weapons to parry through those hobbles. Its somewhat counterable because you *can* still see what you're doing. You can't be hobbled for long unless you are in skill lag, which is kind of your own choice. Players can't even initiate with the hobble skill, giving you a bit of time to respond to an inferior matchup before they strike you with that.

Switch/dirt on the other hand , seems to be quite a bit more dangerous than switch/hobble, as there's no way out of the style/type disadvantage until it runs off, essentially making sure you take a weapon advantage skill as well (assuming you don't just reflex-mode for the dirt, or try to dirt back to stop the skill use). Also, you can initiate with the dirt. So the player doesn't get a chance to defend. So that accounts for hobble being strong enough to just remove dodge, and causng those pincer attacks and things.

Where the wield lag comes into this is obviously to slow switch down to prevent the cheesy in-combat macros - if someone is in skill lag, then you can probably go for hobble - and it also has some negative effects on switch/dirting/hobbling (which quick wield assures is not as bad for rogues as it is for warriors..rogues may actually win that way)...

So in conclusion we can eliminate the wield-lag for not fighting and just think up some new murder counters.

[Davairus]

wield lag updated next reboot:

- bit lower 2h switch lag
- no more lag for swap out of combat (murder counters TBA). we aren't doing this because it is frustrating
- lag for "remove" also reduced

explanation of remove lag reduction... it'll be faster to remove/equip than to just plainly swap. This way you can get out of weapon equip lag faster if you manage to swap it the manual way between the rounds. If you can actually pay attention to that, possibly good for you. It also comes at a RISK of being dirt kicked during the transition. So take the full lag from switch if you want to be safe, but you can potentially do better. n.b. two hand lags are just too long to do that with.

If someone else has some genius idea they can post it and I will look into it.

[RebornShadows]

i was just messing around and i get lagged for switching weapons out of combat. Main and offhand.

[bassball]

Hobble isn't nearly as scary as everyone thinks it is. Seriously. If someone hobbles you, flee, that's all you have to do. If you flee the second they land hobble, then you're safe. Sure you MIGHT get hit with a pincer or sidearm but you don't suffer any rounds without dodge and the lag from fleeing hobbled is LESS then the lag from using hobble, which means you'll still get away and be able to run hobble off. Dirt kick on the other hand. Sucks balls. That's all there is to it.

As for the rest of the discussion. I'm not entirely sure what we're even talking about anymore. Sounds like some good changes have been mdae though. So way to go Dav

[Stiehl26]

Have the non-combat lag changes gone into affect? I dual wielded just a short time ago (well after the post about the changes) and still had lag dual wielding a dagger.

[Slade]

[Mr. Forgotten]

Completely off topic and I'm not sure with the term 'thread jacking' but for wanted status I was thinking maybe after a certain time you could be upped to 'Bountied' or 'Outlaw' status, outlaw might be a bit harsh, but I think the bounty would be awesome after a certain time period. just my 2 cents.

[Insom]

This is probably the longest post that I've read in its entirety. I like you Slade, considering all your suggestions probably reduces your ability to pk.

[Davairus]

Blind fighting is a class skill, so presumably there is a trade-off for having that. But even when a class does have blind fighting, I'm still very concerned about switch dirts. I'd say its still stronger than hobble because you get to milk the combat style/weapon type advantage. Reflex mode out ? But then you have no offense. 1v1 that's called getting outdamaged.

http://www.invokation.net/logs/view.php?id=3913

If you look on the logboard at this log of Hrimoyan vs Vaelyn, blind fighting on both sides, the initiate dirt with combat style advantage at the beginning of the fight is a deadly combination. I think the kicker though is what comes afterward - after the bow counter is pulled out (noticing that the switch/dirt attempt was timed well but the dirt missed), Vaelyn just wears a shield. i.e. Just swapping instantly to the counter. That told me that the wield lag in the current state isn't quite enough. You have to have warriors removing their offhand before they can wear the shield counter, because there's no time for the hard counter to do the damage needed to catch up (the missed dirt doesnt even factor into this - the victim is defenseless). If he had been blind his choices would've still been "double grip" (same combat style) and "dirt", so its not like he's screwed by losing switch there, but there is 100% no access to its counter. Thats the beauty of dirt. If he had fled from combat he would've taken that parting arrow thing because of combat styles (I'm not sure this exists, but presumably rangers have something like that either on attack or on flee, or wounding shots, whatever) and switched faster, but gaining little and definitely postponing his hobble opportunities til later. But going straight to shield there was b.s in my opinion. I think the wield lags would be a bit smarter if you had the choice between getting to the even combat style instantly or the counter more slowly, or fleeing and probably taking some punishment. (In fact autodouble grip wouldve been a liability there, and something that needs to be toggleable) Work through that and comprehend it well, and you will understand what sort of thing we intended to create with wield lags and murder counters. I think cumbersome shield swaps is absolutely required, and very surprised to find I omitted it. As for the durations of the actual wield lags, those are negotiable and I'm listening for your feedback. I would say as a guideline, I'd like the lag from removing some off-hand and wearing a shield after fleeing to cause you enough trouble to guarantee your opponent is out of lag from wearing a two-hander before the lag from your subsequent murder expires, so that there's no way to get a hobble off. Its cutting it pretty closely even with the reduction in 2h wear-lag, but that's possibly the case at the moment.

What we could do is just unlag you if you were still lagged from wield lag when fighting ended. That way you're definitely going to get the first attacks or be able to switch a weapon freely if you want. No reason to flee anymore then. Will contemplate it for a while of course, just throwing this out into the air at the moment

We should be keeping in mind that warriors dont have cures, other classes have cure serious, herb, vamp touch, better tick whoring, invis/det invis etc, all of which specifies having less beefy counters, but some counters.

btw, as far as personality types go, I am experimental, which means unless I like you already, I require evidence to truly believe stuff. So link your logs if you wish to completely convince me of a point. Because the overwhelming majority of outcomes with switch/dirts says that wield lag is quite necessary, which is why I took the measure of putting it in, aware of some of the problems that it would cause, though admittedly didn't quite anticipate this spam of flee/murder result.

Murder counter skills won't be given for the sake of novelty ... I'm only strongly convinced that two classes actually need an additional skill/spell so far. Because as stated ninjas have caltraps to couple with dust/dirt (you certainly can't call *that *a novelty!), rangers have additional skirmishing shit, warriors have counter (limited, but okay with that since theyre big tanks with riposte anyway) and so on. I'm mostly just concerned about thieves, paladin, and dark-knights, for succumbing to the spams of flee/murder.

[Insom]

I'm concerned that you are lumping vamp touch in with the rest of the cures. Dark knights have horrible tick regen compared to everyone else and the only cure they have requires them to be in battle with another mob all the while wasting valuable unholy time.... In combat situation herb is so superior it's not even funny. You can milk cure light/vamp touch a lot more efficiently in the long run but in short bam bam pk situations, i would rather have herb any day of the week.

[Davairus]

I think I've already given you what I want for dk's... I can understand if you haven't been reading the forums thoroughly enough to catch it.


Also for flee/murders, there was another thing that came up that I just remembered about. We used to have autoassist causing double rounds, so that if you murdered on a necro or illusionist (or, alternatively, let him attack you first), the army would screw you harder in the first round when it assisted. Same with groups of players. Something like that is an incentive to stay in combat with your prey, instead of fleeing/murders which then ends up hurting more than it helps. I broke it intentionally when I cleaned up the assistance code. Its something which I could re-introduce as a skill for the right class, I would imagine.

For pets: Because of their level 30 cap, I view them as a tool to help you carry additional items ,i.e. for looting players and relief when gambling, not as a big deal in pk. They can do a bit of damage /tanking in pvp , but its gonna cost you too much money and annoyance to keep rezzing it.

I do like it when slade posts too, he's been better than most at seeing the issues. You can see why he is successful player. But the logs all said instant switch/dirts are the games biggest killer. Not dirts. Switch dirts.