running ideas thread for murder counters

[Mandor]

[Mandor]

[crazyhorse]

You could define murder lag by what type of class the warrior is attacking. Increase for mage type to like 1.5, cleric to 1.25, and keep it the same for warriors.

I personally think the only issue is against mages.

Bassball, yes the issue is they are overpowered. Let me really break it down for you, because apparently you need it.

If you have a warrior vs an invoker in basic eq, is a pretty fair fight.

If you have a warrior in basic stuff and invoker in uber stuff, warrior can pull off a win if he does it right, but favor is for invoker.

If both warrior and invoker are ubered, warrior wins. Period. Unless he REALLY fucks up. This last scenario, when it comes to being fair, should not happen. It should not be a near statistical guarantee that one class is going to lose if one side is ubered. ESPECIALLY when they are BOTH ubered. Warriors should have the advantage in a full ubered contest, because they are pretty reliant on eq. But they are too powerful when fully rared against mage classes.

[kammkala6]

[Mandor]

[Slade]

Murder has always been effective and I've long preached its value, but I wouldn't say that it is broken per se. You are simply witnessing a wholesale improvement of the overall hit/dam average players have these days because sets like TT are quite effective and yet easy to obtain (especially augmented with rares, or boosted beyond the pure set with keeper skills - that is considerable combined power hiding behind a "common" gearing). In the past players would murder/whatever rape you and you would just accept that they have nutty items and leave it at that.

Changing murder affects many classes; top paladins and both clerics (the latter even at 2 non enhanced attacks) use murder a LOT, rangers, berserkers, rogues against casters, etc. There is even the added lag from a flying/grounded mismatch these days which aids casters a little in all but pip/jeo cheese flying potion scenarios.

It is really warriors you are talking about, even though other options can get pretty scary (paladin divine sac+might or DK unholy rape anyone? berserker? etc.) And even then it is not warriors vs. all but warriors vs. some casters, like invoker. You don't change the whole game to address a few matchups.

At best you say something like warrior has fourth attack unique, so perhaps that skill does not trigger on murders, or maybe any attacks after the 4th or 5th in one round do reduced damage. Its a really fine line between adjustment and gimping. Don't underestimate how hard it is and how much damage you need to sustain to take on a good shaman or healer that has space to operate, even as a geared warrior, let alone a rogue (theoretically mage killers but not really as we know) or what have you. It is also mostly by design that warriors have that high ceiling with EQ and a tough time without (this part isn't what it used to be due to sets), so the EQ rarity/reward is usually best balanced first.

[Slade]

[divsky]

Okay, maybe my idea where you get lagged for 1 round for attempting to flee is a bit much, but I was dreaming of a world where it doesn't take 8 attempts to flee every single time.

Regardless, I still absolutely cannot fathom why murder is a completely free round of combat for the initiator. At least let the victim get in his two or three attacks. When attacking a mage the warrior will still be at advantage, but he's still taking a couple of hits. It's not an uber-cheese way of getting free rounds of combat with absolutely zero retaliation.

Btw, shouldn't flee be a defensive option, not an offensive option? A person flees from combat because they're losing, not as a way to dish out more damage. Something is seriously wrong when flee is being used as a cheesy offensive tactic.

[Faelon]

It always seemed to me that if you turn and ran in combat you risk leaving yourself exposed to abuse.

Maybe give weapon ward a chance to do a bit of damage if a warrior type flees out. Making it so that if weapon ward falls, the warrior can flee/murder, or try for the hobble.

[FenixMajere]

Warriors are masters of war. It's about knowing when to flee when to attack and when to stand your ground. I like the way murder is now mainly cause this is how it has always been and I'm used to it. Yeah mages have it rough but they are heavy hitters. Like for example a guy with a gatling gun he can pump out alot of rounds but one good shot and hes down same thing with mages.

Why should we change things to let mages get stronger? If you gave a mage warrior hp he would own because of his high damage output. His strength lies in getting his spells in first his weakness is his low hp/shitty defences.

How about we just make weapon ward do uber damage to anyone who murders them? or how about give them a spell that makes it to where a warrior type cant flee for a few rounds. How about we just make mages OP so people will stop bitching about how mages have it rough.

[kammkala6]

Just because you are used to it does not make it balanced FenixMajere. I think Slade is correct here, murder is not broken but the average hit/dam of people has risen to make it a bit OP.

[bassball]

Why should mages get to attack in the murder round? They already get their spells. You walk in on a mage trying to flee murder and one of two things happens

1 - you land the murder and get a few hits off, then get blasted by hellstream
2 - they knew you were coming(which shouldn't be hard if you really are spamming flee/murder) and managed to hit hellstream before you even murdered, totally owning you.

So, you can wear saves and then not take as much from hellstream, but then the higher avg hit/dam of players making murder OP kinda doesn't count anymore. Or you can go straight damage and get owned by hellstreams. I still don't know if I agree that it's busted. It's an entirely different fighting style. As it should be, masters of war and combat, versus guys that get to cast sweet spells. You can't combine the two, or one of them is gonna be way too hardcore.

[FenixMajere]

Kam did you even read what i typed besides im used to it?
The fact is Mages make up their shitty defences by the high damage the dish out.
Warriors need items, they NEED armor and weapons. If they have shitty items they wont do to good. If warriors are decked they will kick ass but thing is you have to go to winter fight through just to get to the one or two items kill that guy get the items if your lucky fight through more mobs and kill another guy.

in other words it takes alot of time to get a warrior decked where a mage dont really need items, health save breaks scrolls and they are good to go.

Now if you have a decked mage the only way to really beat them is flee/murder repeat. It's not often you find a mage without weapon ward and prot shield. like a few people have said you cant really use any warrior skills against a mage with his spells up. a mage can use any of his spells without worrying about bash, trip dirt hobble etc.

granted with the sets warriors can be beasts (mainly TT) How about instead of trying to fix something that aint broken tone down the sets.

[crazyhorse]

I refused to participate in the sets because I feel they are terrible for the game.

keepers, imo, was a poorly thought out idea. A cabal based on having no real eq is just bogus to me. Why would someone fight a keeper, if all they have is shit? Keepers break the concept of pk in the mud, which is eq.

I think sets stemmed because keepers were planted. I think you should tone sets down, and thus keepers with them.

There have been some of the most terrifying badasses in keepers. Why? Because they are technically "ubered" in a basic eq set. They shouldnt be ubered, they should be averaged. A keeper, having no fear of losing eq at all, should not be able to waste really anyone, but actually have to earn it.

Sets = keepers in my opinion, and keepers are horse shit.

This is a rant. Apologies.

[divsky]

A lot of people have pointed out how hitroll and damroll have been buffed up recently because of sets. I think there should be a kind of equipment stat that could counter-act that by providing more defense against traditional physical-based combat damage.

It's easy to load up on svs and almost entirely negate a mages offensive arsenal, but the mage can do nothing to defend against a warrior's offense. Sure, there's +hp eq, but that just increases the mage's longevity. In the long run the warrior would likely still win.

Maybe we should beef up AC so that it could actually provide significant protection against physical combat- Like it should.

This way there would be more decision making involved in choosing equipment. Do you want:

physical combat offense? (damroll/hitroll)
physical combat defense? (AC)
magical combat offense? (save break)
magical combat defense? (svs)

This way you'd be looking at your offensive abilities, weighing them against your opponents offensive abilities, and deciding the right balance to maximize your offense while also minimizing your opponents offense with a good defense.

Also there should be more save break equipment.

[crazyhorse]

You can gamble for breaks, and buy basics at a store... the fuck else do you want?

[Davairus]

300 ac is about 20% physical damage reduction to that category, which is as good as the protection spell. So AC is not totally useless, and you certainly don't want to be with none. If your AC is positive, you will take EXTRA damage. Usually though, I just think other stats are better. If you wanted to make a halfling healer and get super-ridiculous AC with it (which is about the easiest way to get high AC), it would certainly help to keep you alive, and I guess would be a fun char to try for that once. But good AC usually comes on better items anyway, so its not like you need to go searching for it to get it. Dropping magic AC or saves on the greatest damroll items has been a tried-and-true way to give those items a significant disadvantage. High AC on items is a good thing, and we should actually take a look at the recent gear and sets to see that they're not too high up there. Just don't be stupid and wear worn steel instead of mithril.

[_Clifton_]

[_Clifton_]

[Mandor]

I agree, clifton is not incorrect in this instance.