Envenom (rogue) - just wondering..

[Davairus]

Just wondering if you'd like this for rogues. Actually, I meant to say thieves. This isnt ninja skill.

Envenoms last on weapons for say 8 ticks, gets easier to apply.

using the combat skills correctly (which is just circle and sidestep) allows you get the poison effect instantly, instead of relying on a save. The poison effect is 1-2 ticks.

In additon, your kicks increase your damage against poisoned targets. Maybe +1 dam for each kick, stacking up to 7 times at 50 (i.e. like a warcry), and the effect refreshes the poison duration on each new application.

add another level 20 skill, "garotte", which is a throat-cut, that does a damage like cause continual every round, essentially 10*your stack size every round for 4 rounds, so its a hellstream at 50, like Viggs wanted =p.. at level 20, with the smaller stack size, it'd only be 80 damage.

So it plays out something like this: go for weapon advantage skills, manage to land the enveom, then start spamming your kicks to build damage, finally unload all your poisons with garotte. Noting of course that weapon ward will block the envenom attempts, so mages are still ok if they are careful.

Just figured rogue doesnt look interesting and since we're not at a point to give them specializiation yet, maybe we can just do something quick&easy to make 'em interesting in melee. I chose kick because of its short lag, as I noticed that rogues tend to get ass kicked in the logs because of trying to swap to sidestep too early in the fight. The concept here is essentially combo points, being built up by something mundane like kicking, so easy for the opponent to see what you're trying to do, and requires them to flee/cure poison. You're fine if they flee , means you dont need to.

[Viggs]

I want to have sex with you. I want to bath in your glory, I want Little Davigges running around yelling how much they love thier DAD!!!!! All Hail the Protector On Itialian Virginity ,, Davafuckingirus!!!!!!!

[rabidgecko]

can you please come to college with me viggs

[Dorimos]

That idea is pimpfuckingtacular! That is all I can say to that...

[Resatimm]

Hope more thought goes into the coding of this skill than went into Flurry. Sounds sorta the same. Building something and then releasing it.

But then again, I know that flurry was tailored specifically to someones vision, and it is coded PROPERLY, it is just a skill that became obsolete the day it came in because of the combat modules among other reasons.

[RebornShadows]

sounds like a genirc rip off of WoW but thieves need something new it sucks playing a thief and getting raped.

[Ergorion]

you must not be playing them right. i have an unbeatable thief combo.

[RebornShadows]

uh huh and where are the logs of this so called unbeatable thief combo?

[Ergorion]

You expect me to show everyone how thieves get pretty much an auto-kill? No way man.

But. Let us not get this thread too far off topic, Dav doesn't enjoy reading my posts as it is.

My first point is a comment rather than anything. This whole schtick makes thieves actually practice kick. I mean, most thieves are low str, shitty kickers. Like halflings, gnomes, drow and elves. Duergars I would imagine don't have terrible kicks. I've actually seen halfling kicks do zero damage, but still claim to land. Now they have a reason to use that skill.

My second point is more of a question rather than anything. Does this skill work on npcs or just other players? If it works on npcs, then it would be really nice to have a thief with you helping to dish out the garotte along with his hefty sidestep/circle damage.

My third point is that something that gives thieves a thiefy hellstream might make them too powerful. Sure you're probably going to get the retards who don't try anything except garotte and still get ass-raped by warriors, then whine that the skill is not powerful enough. But then you're going to get thieves who do a successful blackjack/dual backstab combo and then manage to get in a garotte and ass-rape the warrior and have warriors whining that the skill is too powerful.

With that being said, I think most warrior classes would choose to go the segment route to annul sidestep. Possibly going blade to prevent the dirt/disarm/clobber that is sure to come if you stay perma-segment. But I don't think we'd be seeing any players wielding shafts against thieves. So altogether, I think this skill would take some of the psychology out of pk vs. thief. If you're a mage, ward which is already a given. If you're a warrior/hybrid class, alternating between one of two things: dual wielding segments and dual wielding blades to avoid getting sidestepped.

Trying to head off Dav's stinging rebuke before it happens, I know that makes absolutely no sense. First I say that it's too powerful and then I say that it's not going to work. I'm just trying to come at this from a bunch of different angles.

Personally, I think that Dav should make a mort in order to see for himself how all these things are working themselves out.

[Insom]

I agree with Ergorion that thieves are not weak, thieves may be weak against a couple of classes but against the others if you are fast you have an winning edge. Thieves are what Dav says though, boring. It is very one dimensional if you are a straight up killer. But if you are not, then it's quite fascinating. Look at Viggs for example.

[Davairus]

Well I feel irked when I hear people saying ideas are just attempts to ripoff wow, CF, FL, or whatever else, because we usually did most of their stuff before they did. We've a;readu had envenom poisoning off melee attacks for a long time. I told you guys, I'm of the mind that an eclectic approach to the game's design works best. You don't want a lame clone obviously, but you should want a game that appeals to players of all types. That obviously means drawing inspiration from the best of what's around you.

As a matter of fact, you can look at something which has recieved a great deal of critical acclaim ... lets say the sculpture of the ancient Greeks... and you can actually follow a timeline backward through history and see that the Greek architecture style borrowed heavily from Egypt and the surrounding territories. That's the nature of art.. it evolves. If I haven't convinced you yet, I suggest you go take a look at the Last Supper by Leonardo da Vinci. All of the disciples are doing interesting things with their hands that is paying homage to the etruscan (contemporary with Roman) art. This is by someone considered an artistic prodigy. Is it original? No. But it caused a real stir at the time when you consider the etruscans were very anti-Roman (who became catholic), and worshipped tons of gods. Its a reference that would have really ticked a lot of Romans off.



This is a game that is evolving in time as well. We can only do that by drawing on the experiences we have around us. Burzuk is about the most hardcore rpg'er of all the old Imms, he would actually bother to play through a big game like Morrowind, and also was into quake online and rise of nations, so you can see he has background to pump ideas from. Great ideas don't get simply shit out by anyone. It depends on your knowledge space. Go play those games and see for yourself. Remember that those games all borrow from the predecessors - its not the same guy, or why would you bother buying it, but they try to put in everything you'd like to find. Rise of Nations is a particularly nuanced RTS,and you would be able to draw a lot of parallels between it and AR. Personally, not being a hardcore RTS player (its about as fun for me as building and then smashing lego), I find its a bit too feature-rich for my tastes, but to someone who loves RTS I can appreciate why they'd find it rather enthralling.


So with that said.. actually I was just looking for some ways to improve envenom since I don't see why it'd be used a whole lot. "Your kicks improve your damage against poisoned targets" is a simple way of doing that. Garotte was an after-thought for PVE since once you've stacked the debuff to maximum you're back with nothing to do. Its sort of related to the tripwire concept as well anyway. I also wanted to throw this on the forums because I knew it wasn't really too serious, and I want to see what kind of response you make

[Insom]

I dislike this idea not for what it allows thieves to do but what it makes other classes do. They now have to be prepared against poison as well. I feel like there is way too much micro management with supplies already. You have detect-invis potions, fly potions/scrolls, recall potions, resist potions, sanc potions, and with this change you would need cure poison potions. That is one hell of a lot of potions to carry around.

[Viggs]

true ,, but where is my cure hobble potion ,, and my cure hellstream potion or my etc etc potion ,, it would be the only thing the whole mud would need to 'supply' for a thief attack ,, side the purples .....
So oh freaking great a few elites can pwn with a thief ,, take the avg mudder here and I would have to think most changes are for the avg mudder ... thiefs suck ,, they are very limited in what they can do ,, after 40th you do not gain a thing ,, tripwire is your last skill you learn and its so hit and miss whens the last time you have seen it used effectivily
now I know i am in no way a good player ,, if you guys knew how many pinicalled ive had over what seven years ive been here you would be suprised ,, but Ive played a thief pretty much the whole time ive been here ,, i know ,, im boring ,, but im usually stoned and i like to blackjack things sooooo,,,,, all that was just so i could say with what little bit i do know ,,, thieves need stuff ,, if its not this ,, its something ,,a longer lasting Gag ,, abuct is some way ,, some more tricks of some sort ,,, ANYTHING,,, no body really worries when they see a thief ,, they load up there bags so we cant steal them cause they are heavy ,,, blah blah blah ,,
love
Daviggies mother

[Insom]

I haven't played a thief in a long long time but I'm fairly certain the whole idea of thieves is to make sure your prey DONT SEE YOU coming. Blackjack and dual backstab against a non-sanced person typically puts you ahead in battle no? If you are able to strip their weapon ahead of the battle, you might get in with a side step or clobber as well right? As I said, thieves are one dimensional and yes please give them something to that there is variety but not something that is gonna make all the other classes affected as well. Otherwise we keep going down this road, 80% of the time on AR will be prep work instead of actual fighting.

[Davairus]

There is already poison in the game, why are you complaining about needing a cure? Timian leaves, you can get it the same time as a gyvel. Not that there is going to be any reason to cure it since warriors/berserkers are so beefy vs thieves, everyone else weapon wards, or likely has a cure poison spell or some kind of resistance to that.

[Viggs]

ya your prob dead on with the prep problem ,,, But Im in the Camp of belivers that think Thiefs shouldnt really be killing ,, its all in the steal ,,of course a kill here and there is nice ,, For me its the blackjack the steal and then wait for all the "Come out and fight like a man" yells ,,,hiding right with them and blackjacking them again ,,, miss and run like hell ,,, But thats me ,, if i had more fun stealing things that would be great ,,, so put that in your pipe and come up with some cool thief stuff thats not kill realated ,,, then me and you will tell Dav to code it ,, he will do what we say ,, and then I will also have sex with you ,, now how can you turn that down

unless he heard me then all bets are off

[kieros]

Is it just me but I thought from previous flame posts that you are an idiot if you stay in a fight with a thief vs warrior. With these extra melee skills it will make thieves a lot more interesting for elite players because they can kill you a variety of different ways but for the average mudder who won't do well in a straight up fight vs a warrior it would seem to have a huge downside. Building up combat points imo would be difficult with a thief because you can't stay in the fight too long no way to cure and if you screw up your combat style or weapon advantage its over. Maybe adding a skill that ties a hand behind your back for a few rounds like a variation of gag with effects like you cannot dual wield or shield block. Or maybe you drive a stake through their clothing so they can't run away for a few rounds. I think the fun of a thief is once the black jack starts and right before its over, after that its a crap shoot.

[Kren]

If you want envenom used more make it availible for more than just bladed weapons. Make a kill from envenom count toward the thieves kill.

My opinion would be if you want to improve thieves give them a blade skill for two handed and dual wield.

[Insom]

This is for you Viggs.

Skill: Bag Busting
Prey must be sleeping status.
You destroy your prey's containers so that the contents are spilled into inventory. This allows the thief to steal items that used to be in containers that were hindered previously by weight. The prey, when awaken, can place the items back into a secondary container if he or she has one if not then he must deal with the large amount of items in inventory.

[Mummy]

()_()

I've played a thief recently! First, this is a new dimension. If that's what you're saying, kewlbeens. If not, then... I dunno, but it is a new dimension because if the thieves decide they want to stay in combat to try and land