New thief skill discussion - stand your ground

[Olyn]

Yeah, the name stinks but here's the concept.

Sometimes a thief is cornered or disabled (hobbled) and just needs to stand his ground. This skill would be toggled on like warrior reflex mode. When active the thief will no longer try to dodge. Because he is focusing entirely on deflecting attacks he gets an increased ability to parry (still not as effective as dodge+parry) and a better chance to disarm. The thief only gets one attack per round, cannot flee while using this skill, and cannot use any combat skills besides kick or disarm.

[Viggs]

ummmmm ,,,... hmmmmm,,,,,, how is this a good skill? i think it would nerf the thief even more ,,, i cant flee??? im getting hit more ,, but I can disarm more? is all that nerf just to give thiefs a better chance to disarm <?

sorry if i cant figure it out ..you know me

[Olyn]

It's purpose would be to help thieves survive hobble. And a new skill that isn't automatic is never a nerf because you don't have to use it.

[Viggs]

and I do need a hobble escape ,, but If I cant flee and Im taking more hits then without this skill and i can only kick and disarm ,,, im not sure thats helping ,, seems to me in my limited knowhow that I would die faster but I dont know so dont smite me

[Olyn]

Here's some clues as why the suggestion would improve your circumstance when hobbled:

HOBBLE
Syntax: hobble

A vicious skill, hobble allows one to attempt to temporarily cripple
one's opponent with a weapon attack. If successful, a hobbled opponent
loses dexterity and cannot dodge at all. The dexterity loss is more
catastrophic to more dextrous targets than to naturally clumsy targets. In
addition, fleeing on hobbled legs will often result in the victim falling
over from the pain and effort, allowing the pursuer to catch up.

[Ergorion]

A rogue has several things that can get him, or her, out of a hobble situation.

1) flee immediately following the hobble and run it off.
2) hold recall;quaff recall. works well with high-dex races especially with quick wield.
3) dirt;flee; run it off. hope that you didn't just get hobbled by a halfling.


I like the spirit of the idea in having the thief (does this apply to rogues as well?) focus more on parry while hobbled, but I don't know how effective it would be since most thieves are of the low str/high dex variety and dodge is their bread. I don't know that having rogues try to wait out a hobble would be a good idea.

Here's something I thought of that goes the opposite direction of the wait it out idea, but still has to do with the whole cornered prey motif. A cornered prey is the most dangerous.

Skill: Panic Attacks (hardy har har, double entendre)
Syntax: panic
Description: When a thief has been hobbled by a warrior or berserker, and he sees death approaching in the distance, he fights with a reckless abandon in the hopes of saving his life. A thief using the panic attacks skill leads with an unblockable attack of the weapon skill for the weapon he currently wields (i.e. he does a successful sidestep even though hobbled, a successful clobber, or a successful uncanny). And he delivers unblockable attacks for the duration of the hobble.

I think that having both the lead with weapon skill and the unblockable attacks might be a bit too powerful, but you could choose one or the other. Something like this would definitely make it more painful for warriors to hobble rogues and might get more warriors trying to out-think rogues and use their nifty skills like sideswipe etc. rather than trying for a hobble every time.

[Olyn]

I don't think making thieves stronger when hobbled is a good idea. Maybe something like my earlier suggestion, without the no_flee thing and a successful kick or disarm gives opponent 1 round lag and you autoflee with no hobble lag.

[Ergorion]

Yeah. Kicky flee as a kind of ranger parting shot deal. That would be a viable counter to hobble. The thief couldn't have kick lag though. That would just replaces hobble lag with a different type of lag. Autokick to flee and then straight running. And since most thieves are low str, their kicks would do jack shit against mr. warrior and it's just a way to run away.

The thing is though, a skill like this is similar to the dirt kick to flee idea. Except you don't eat two rounds of fighting between the dirt kick and the fleeing. But with dirt kick, the warrior can't see where you run away to if you get out of the area quickly enough.

I'm thinking more on this trying to think of other possible ways this could work. One thought that came to mind was having the thief trip the warrior on his flee and not having the hobble lag. But then I realized, that doesn't make sense. How is a crippled thief supposed to trip someone bigger and stronger than he is while running away? Then I thought a similar thought about how is a crippled thief supposed to get his leg high enough to kick a warrior and then run away? From a roleplay standpoint, I'm not sure if the whole kicky flee works.

[RebornShadows]

not only that but every thief would just do the kick flee thing and then hide leaving mr.warrior wondering when the thief is gonna try a blackjack and start all over again.

[Slade]

Rogues have to press the action - if they are successful in getting the most out of surprise and then combat type skills, they should win (in a just world). If the target can not only stand their ground but press their hobble advantage too then they should win. This kind of high stakes finality is a good thing.

The problem is that it is too easy for hobblers to get that kind advantage relative to the other way around (and this is even before things like blind fighting, reflex, and grip disarm protection are thrown in - I would personally add the inherent strength of hobble to that too). This is because while type usage is unpredictable, style is somewhat predictable in this matchup. Rpgues really enjoy the counterbalance defense boost, and fighters tend to dual wield accordingly. Thieves can surprise with bow and a rare 2h clobber or uncanny might fuck someone up, but there is generally just too much passive disadvantage to overcome barring a perfect situation.

Basically rogues need more incentives to use dual and 2h (particularly defensive). Like point blank on thieves, new situational light defenses, stuff like that. Or perhaps active skills that provide defensive benefit like the way uncanny can rake attacks. Rake is actually a good mechanic to flesh out on rogues because it is modest advantage that builds up over time, earned by skill/brains (finesse fighter). Multiple situational raking skills could be a good route.