Is Justice stronger than the other pansy cabals?

[Louis]

Is that special guard always kicking your face in?

Quote: Nourrin ~ "Most powerful cabal in the game, a dunce can even manage some kills with them"

** but if that's so, why couldn't Cromin handle being a Justice?

Or do you think another cabal is stronger? (Not asking for you to claim favorites, but rather wondering about your thoughts on which cabal is over-powered or if they are all just right)

If your answer is not represented above, feel free to elaborate. Heralds and Assassins were not included as candidates for "stronger than Justice" because Heralds obviously isn't a PK-oriented cabal and Assassins because it can't be compared.

[Clifton]

I don't even know who played Cromin or why he deleted. But yes, Justices are the most powerful cabal in the came only when there are criminals. Otherwise they're just a rank 50 char. Compare a special guard to what the other cabals receive. Closets skill for skill match I can come up with is forms. But special guards add an extra two attacks and a beastly tank if played right (with dirt, disarm, bash). What else can match that, the only prerequisite being having a wanted in Thera?

[Bones V2.0]

Justice is the most powerful cabal in the game due to a strategies that the other cabals cannot use.

Justice goes out of town, attacks you, runs back to town, and is safe.

Even if you attack and kill the justice, you still get flagged, and eventually you die.

[Enskel]

I don't think anybody will question that special guards are the buffest pets in the game. Depending on your race/class they can be invincible. Plus they're disposable. You can call a new one from anywhere.

Supposedly their extra-buff cabal skills are balanced out by the fact that there are repercussions for using them on anyone but criminals, but a justice can use town protection to time fights to his liking. This makes justice necros and illusionists particularly deadly.

[Flying Hampster of Doom]

Aside from the obvious flee from combat back to seringale techinique, I have had a justice wander around with a guard outside of town.. I attacked this justice and the guard was allowed to remain because I attacked and not the other way around. This allows for some awesome defence and if you have lagging skills also makes for a kick ass way to pk on the defensive.

Justice by far is the most powerful, and probably 'over' powered cabal in the game.

[Louis]

i find the tentative results of this poll very interesting. the responses seem to be across the board for the most part.

btw to all voters, thanks for being truthful and not claiming favorites to make your cabal look better or keep it from being viewed as "overpowered" and in need of change.

[divsky]

.. what about Heralds? They pwn j00.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Justice is overpowered, for a single reason. You attack the Cabal, you get wanted no questions, flagged and eventually killed. You invade Legion, not in range no worries, Knights no worries, you are never safe from the Justice, the guard negates the pk system slaying any rank without question. Not to mention you attack other cabals and all you deal with is the PK aspect, being wanted invokes Dagnir, Narak, Tir, the more powerful ones as well as typical guards and eventually the shopkeepers refuse to offer their services to you. In my opinion the power granted to the Justice cabal ultimately removes it from the Cabal warfare system, no one wants to get flagged or ganged for that matter. Although I must say Justice has been extremely inactive as of late, and at times the Justice will be greatly outnumbered, so whatever live, fight, die, learn. C'est la vie.

[Sebryn]

Yeah, nobody wants to f*** with the Heralds 'cuz we can... uh...

...

Nevermind, we don't even have a cabal guardian anymore...

Damn.

[Seryie]

and for that, i'm thankfull..

[Louis]

another thing to consider about the cabal raiding thing. now as we all know, justices do not cabal raid others when they want to pk, but they can get cabal raided, provided their enemy gets a wanted flag and will eventually die, as you put it. this flag allows the justice to actually start using his cabal skills.

however, at 50, say i raid or continue to harp at legions or knights or warlords with my neutral character. what is to stop them from writing a note to their cabal and saying i raided, and am basically an enemy of the cabal? guess what.. i will "eventually die." immediate deathmarks from all warlords in range, immediate swarms of legions or crusades of knights coming at me because i defiled their sacred grounds ~ i wouldn't expect anything less from them and if they didn't, i'd bring the issue up. below 50, if you get wanted, yes you are at a disadvantage because you cannot fight back on the justice. however, the justice cannot directly attack you and should you be a running man like several wanted ninjas, psis (Jeigtoft), and even a berserker named Wuantorc (in my experience), it is extremely difficult to catch and kill a lightfooted low level criminal.

i posted this poll to see if the majority of the player base really did think certain cabals were imbalanced, but it seems that so far that the ones who see Justice as overpowered and unfair for the game are simply the most vocal ones of the bunch. some people actually think legions, warlords, or knights are the most powerful cabal *all the time*. notice these people didn't post any gripes about warlords, knights, or legions. also, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the voters think every single cabal is balanced. let's wait and see how the rest of the responses add up.

[Sebryn]

[Louis]

was this last post meant to be in another thread sebryn?

if not, i don't understand what you mean by it..

[Sebryn]

It wasn't meant to be in another thread, but I'm not exactly certain where I was going with it...

Maybe just the fact that you're a strong advocate of the idea that the Justice cabal is balanced as much as the others are, yet it seems that the numbers on Deiminos would disagree with you. Granted your personal skill, playing style and the necro class had quite a bit to do with Deiminos' performance, but the fact that he was a Justice gave you several tools to work with when planning your PKs that other cabals don't have available.

Just a thought...

[Louis]

oh i'm not this strong advocate for justice you think i am, i actually made this poll with game balance in mind. every option on the poll is actually one of my opinions (that i've held at one point or another) and something i could see myself arguing for. when i point out what i think are holes in arguments against justice, i'm simply pointing out that Justices are nowhere near invincible as many like to say they are, and there are so many limitations that you can exploit if you're smart about it. the classic example is when someone says a Justice can pk whenever he wants but can just word or recall to town when he doesn't want to. there is a big whole in that argument. say you are a justice's worst enemy. You attack him every time HE goes out of town, and every time you go out of town he's afraid to attack you. just like that, you turned the tables on him. It's a double edged sword, along with almost everything else about justice, such as wanted flags and your choice to either disregard or work around them, the accusations that the Justice's cabal being protected is unfair, and etc.. Also, keep in mind that of my 500 pks, a large amount of them are also from when my special guard apprehended low ranking criminals. I believe that also counts as a PK. those PKs really mean nothing anyway and doesn't have anything to do with how overpowered or underpowered my character is. lowbie apprehending is just a function and a job carried out by a justice. I like things to be presented how they are, and I know what justice is and isn't.

the point is, the voters are spread along the spectrum of opinions. if all i wanted to do was to advocate justice, i wouldn't have started this poll in the first place.

[Louis]

so far out of the 25 responses, ~1/3 say yes for Justice, the other 2/3 say no for either one of the other 3 (of 4) cabals mentioned, or for total balance. garnered from votes, the strongest pking cabals seem to follow the order of Justice (~1/3), all balanced (btw 1/3 and 1/4), Legion (~1/6), Knight (~1/8), Warlord (~1/12).

so this seems to say that although Justice does not have a plurality nor does it have a majority, more people feel strongly that Justice is the buffest cabal vs those that feel strongly that another specific cabal is the strongest. however, the split between yes and no favors no, Justice is not unfairly stronger. anyway, i'd like to say a few things about cabals for both those that are curious about which cabal to go for or those that are just generally interested in the directions of the various cabals.

justice - severely changes the environment of ar when this cabal is strong or weak. it goes from a mud with 3 safezones where the bloodthirsty are frustrated but the newbies are spared or avenged, to a free-for-all. i've liked both sides though. popularity with this cabal never seems too high, even though its no secret it makes your character much stronger (as long as you use it to your advantage and not disadvantage, meaning no more elements of surprise in your pks). the mud will always need justices, so make one.

legion - player skill has always been the deciding factor in the prestige of legions. i think the cabal is moving away from being a gangbanging group to the legion of old where each member proves his worth. however, what they lack in given cabal skills (btw i think they should get back abduct, what an awesome spell which encouraged one-on-one fights, not grouped fights) they can gain so much more in attitude and unpredictability. i would like to see a legionnaire rise through the ranks to claim the power for his own and command loyalty from his subjects in legion until another challenger arises. (i largely promote infighting in legions).

knight - incredible potential to dominate AR with their gangbanging crusades against evils, great cabal skills, and alliances with neutrals. i think that balances out because there are alot of evil characters on AR. having a mount instead of a charmie is great for rp and style too. so why aren't they dominating? hmm.

warlord - i see a large problem with warlords because they do not have a purpose but to duel. they have no rp reason for existing and serving a function. they get eq, wear eq, and take care of their records as if they were nursing their pet cats. pk wise, warlords make your character extremely powerful but the worst bit is that your cabal cannot go to war. warlords that don't go to war (because if they do, they have to gangbang, and if their item is lost they cannot sanc/stance and they are toast) is sad. however, it is always a popular cabal because it makes you so strong. if its popular, more the reason to have a unifying goal and teamplay aspect. they are solo fighters but not self absorbed assassins anyway.

personally I was initially inclined to say that justice does make for the strongest cabal, but i think i'm going to agree that they are indeed balanced.

[Nonpoint]

Justice is overpowered... When you can flag anyone who attacks you in town and keep the guard as defense outside town... plus use the guard to full loot any criminal who invades your cabal/attacks you directly in town for the flag.. is whack.

Im just gonna say.. its overpowered enough without a cabal full of retards who naked kill you and talk shit afterwards.. and yeah when justice can triple up on people and naked kill while other cabals have more guidelines.. Id say they are overpowered.. but when the cabal is totally empty, definately not much of a threat. Or when theres only a member or two that are active not much of a threat.. but with active justices whp have some skill and pussy foot in town to get you flagged... overpowered.

[Vertas]

[Addreodyn]

I voted for all balanced. Justice is only strong against criminals -- basically, you decide when the Justice gets to use his powers against you since it is your choice to attack in town and risk getting caught. Justice makes the mud more interesting. I don't really know why people get so upset when they get wanted...I usually kind of enjoy it. I had a ranger a while ago that was wanted from around rank 19 to 35 (Justices were active then too, usually at least one on when I logged in). I actually sometimes found it easier to pk in town when wanted, because no one would risk attacking me back. One of my favorite tricks was to run into town, let the Justice track me for a while, recall, and pk someone in town while the Justice was still off looking for me. (Of course, I died when I tried this and a group of 4 was waiting to gang me at the temple...but all in good fun)
So that's my lesson for today. Torture those Justices -- they deserve it!

-Addreodyn, former Justice

[Louis]

my take on it is that you vote for the cabal that you feel strongly about and can argue for. the question is which cabal is the strongest/most powered in the game. if you agree with each option, then you should choose balanced. what a few certain individuals did to make you hate a certain cabal shouldn't make the decision for you. (ie i just don't like legions so i'll vote against them because katriena wrecks me all the time and that's so unfair... vs no, justice is not the strongest because the concept behind Legions draws the best pk abilities from our pbase, so Legions is and always will be the strongest.)