Weapon Ward

[Morbious]

So I just want to understand weapon ward better, According to the help file it nullifies a lot of things. So if a rogue attacked a caster with weapon ward, clobber, uncanny, and side step wouldn't work against him? am I reading that right?

[Voltron]

Yes. Weapon ward nullifies just about everything.

Disarm, clobber, sidestep, uncanny, sideswipe, hobble. possibly others I'm forgetting?

It also nullifies the weapon advantage parry affects. So yeah. It's super uber. But in all fairness, without it, they'd get owned. so..

[Morbious]

so if your a rogue, you have to.... kick them to death? while you are getting reamed with spells? Not saying they shouldnt have it but just trying to understand what someone with weapon attacks is supposed to do. I'm under the impression that a balanced system should be able to equally kill one another with their skills. Please shed some light on this

[Morbious]

I'm assuming there is no cool down on it... So when it drops they can just flee and recast? So Hellstream {or whatever spell} vs rogue kick/dirt kick? I'm assuming unless the caster is really retarded, the spells will win. I'm sure the comment will come up "oh you have to wait till the ward expires" what does that give me 2 maybe 3 seconds? Wouldn't a rogue be dead by then if you were waiting for that opportunity?

[Olyn]

The classes with weapon ward get two attacks and don't have enhanced damage. The other classes can still do a great deal of damage just with their regular attacks. Most of these classes get five attacks (3 attacks +2 dual wield attacks). The most common strategy for these classes is to flee while the mage is still lagged from casting a spell and re-initiate with murder. Also, weapon ward has a short duration (very short for some combos) so a smart opponent can really capitalize when it falls.

[Esivole]

The most likely response will be flee/murder. kick is almost never worth it. of course if you are fighting a necro, flee/murder doesn't work (rend life will land before you get your murder off), so kick might (highly doubtful) be worth it there. also, you mentioned dirt kick, it is also unlikely you will get to use that against a spell caster as well, since protective shield prevents that amongst other skills. and with fly you can't trip them either. thats all of your skills. so flee/murder is the only option. unless it isn't.

since you only mentioned rogue, we will touch on both.
Thieves obviously can steal/pry some stuff, not useful against mages as much, but still helps. You can also envenom (I've never used it, no idea how affective that is.)
As a ninja you can double kick or ikuzachi, blind dust or poison dust too (circumstantially.) maybe even caltraps (if not flying) or nerve.

Sadly, flee/murder is the way of fighting mage/cleric classes.

I also want to point out i've seen mages doing dismembers through sanc with their regular attack.

[Vevier]

As much as you pishposhed it, Morbious, the trick is to wait until weapon ward expires. As far as I know, I don't think it shields against dirt, so keep the mage dirted, then when they flee to recast (which will happen pretty quick since WW has a short duration for most casters), they'll stumble giving you the chance to chase after, re-engage combat and get your skills off.

Another good trick is to run around for a tick or two to make sure their weapon ward is about to expire, get into combat, dirt them and wait for it to go down.

Also if they are spamming spells they'll have a lag which will give you a chance to get your killer skills off. If they aren't casting spells, you'll out damage them. Its pretty balanced.

[Voltron]

lol. I love when people say weapon ward has a short duration. On average isn't it like twice as long as purple potions? When was the last time you capitalized off a purple potion sanc fall? lol. Weapon ward lasts PLENTY long enough.

Alright, so here it is Morbious, if you're fighting a mage with a rogue, then they have weapon ward up, and protective shield up(which nulls dirt, Vevier) so you can do nothing except murder and kick. Luckily for you, if you play it right, that's all you'll need. Time your flees and your murders so they cast their spells while you're in a different room. Obviously they don't get lagged from that, but hopefully they aren't mashing 'c hell' so you'll atleast slightly limit the times they get it off. If you flee murder with two weapons you can throw done some decent damage pretty quick. Mages can't heal, and they'll go done. Obviously this isn't sure fire, because they do a ton of damage anyways. But nothing is supposed to be sure fire, right?

If you're fighting a cleric it's different. They aren't set up to deal as much damage as quick, but they live for-freaking-ever. If you're a duergar, use two axes, if not, then go for whatever you want I guess. With a cleric the fight WILL last long enough that weapon ward, and maybe even prot shield if you're lucky will fall. When this happens you've gotta be MEGA quick(from my experience) to even try and react fast enough to use a skill before they flee and re cast.(I think my ratio of capitalizing vs missing the opportunity is like 1/25(yeah, that sucks, and I'm pretty fast if I may say so myself))

So it's gonna be tough. But by all means it isn't impossible to beat a mage or cleric with nothing but flee/murder. I promise.

[Morbious]

Sooo.... Good luck is what you're saying? hahah. Between shield and dirt, times are hard. And I too have seen mages do decent damage with their weapon alone. Still I can't see, even with good timing and fleeing, avoiding a majority of say, rend lifes or hellstreams. Not enough where my extra attack or maybe 2 would add up to equal damage. Even if I managed to keep sanc up the entire fight I'm pretty sure a hellstream would *** DEMOLISH *** through my sanc, even with a good amount of saves, a Mangle would hurt. So even if I got hit by maybe 2 or three, I can see how this match up would not be preferred; especially with a cleric. So what is the logic here? Melee classes have a lot more health so they dont need a ward against spells? What if you are an avian thief/ninja or something? You cant do a counterbalance evasion on a hellstream or rendlife? Understand my tone I'm not bickering I'm just inquiring. Figured this is the place for answers. So flee/murder etc while holding your balls praying you get lucky is the strategy? You say it's "Possible" to kill one; seems like they are not on even grounds. All a mage has to do really is pay attention to there spells; sit back relax; and cast away? Any more light on the situation would be appreciated, Thanks for the replies so far though

[Morbious]

oh and the one vs a necromancer? If a rogue has manage to kill one, one on one, is there a log of it? I would like to learn from it. I just imagine it being really impossible. Nec plus weapon ward+protective shield with all its spells and abilities and golems and zombies vs Rogue with dual wield and kick..... I think flee/murder wouln't compare to the necro's damage

[Voltron]

Yeah, a fully prepped necro owns Morbious.. against anyone. So yeah that's a tough one to handle. I personally have only killed like 1-2 fully prepped necros in my entire life.


I know it sounds like it's impossible, but it's not. I've killed my share of mages and clerics. And so has everyone else. And mages and clerics win too. I'm not going to give you a fail proof method for always winning. There's not one. If there is someone else better tell me too. lol.

I just spent like ten minutes looking for a log for you to look at, but I couldn't find one.

Basically what you need to remember is when you flee/murder you get a "free round." Meaning that you get your attacks and they don't get to attack back for 1 round. That makes a big difference. You also have to remember that as a thief your defenses are good enough that MOST of the mages normal attacks aren't going to hit you. And the flip side is their defenses are bad enough that hopefully most of yours will hit. You also have enhanced damage and two weapons. So you're going to do more damage. You just have to be really fast with your flee murders.

[Morbious]

thanks a lot voltron that logic is solid

[geadin]

you could blackjack, strangle, lure and lullaby(bard) said caster, then recite a bound scroll on them to see what spells they have up. Rogues have long lasting dirt, so if you can land that on a necro, illusionist, or ranger with full pets, they shouldn't attack. As a rogue you should be hiding constantly then catch the off guard. A dual backstab or assassinate will definitely put the fight in your favor.

[Morbious]

yeah true, on the dirt, but most of the casters always have their protective shields up and weapon ward up. The ones I seem to group with just keep weapon ward up and shield up all the time...Thankfully it appears the Backstab and Assassinate cant be nullified, so that gives at least one good solid attactk. At least what I've seen

[Vevier]

[Esivole]

Backstabbing and assassinate are easily avoided by staying in lower than perfect health... Removing and wearing health items is the most common way around it. That is easier said than done in most cases.

[Morbious]

would it be unrealistic to make a cool down for weapon ward. Like slow has kinda, Lets say weapon ward lasts 4 hours make the cd last 5 or 6, Gives an hour or two windor open for a person to exploit there attacks, and forces the mage or cleric to flee for an hour before resuming? Just a thought

[Voltron]

I rarely play mage classes, so I could be biased and say I want that too, Morbious, lol. But I won't. In all honesty, if weapon ward had an hour cool down, that's a long time, and most weapon skills induce a little bit of lag. You could hobble and they'd be dead before they got a chance to re ward. You could chain clobber. You could shield disarm and put out so much damage they'd die real quick. If it had an hour cool down mages wouldn't have a chance.


Question, weapon ward nulls disarm, if weapon ward is down, and you land a disarm, will the spin bash hit? Or is spin bash nulled by prot shield? I say spin bash SHOULD land if the disarm lands. I just don't know if that's the case.

[Vhrael]

Unless I'm mistaken, blackjack and strangle aren't impeded by weapon ward. Why not hit 'em with that and wait 'til sanctuary/ward/prot shield drop then mow 'em down?

Unless I'm mistaken. Unless I'm mistaken.

[Voltron]

You're right Vhrael. But if the weapon ward is fresh it will most likely outlast the blackjack or strangle. Prot shield will for sure. It lasts quite awhile. I mean the ward could fall while they're asleep if it's not fresh. So that's a valid option still. And if they're using purples sanc will fall. And if you're sneaky enough they might not have aura to being with, and ward might not be fresh. And if they wear off, and you land a dual backstab you could do enough damage to get a huge upper hand. But there's no lag from that except on you, so then they fly/recall and get away anyways. So.. And the only other initiatory skill you've got is(provided prot shield is still up) is murder. And they'll just insta flee and sand and ward. If prot shield is down you could land a dirt and then it's downhill from there.