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Weirdo
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 51
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 Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:15 pm Post subject: ... |
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| I have to say this specilisation idea sounds great. I actually thought about suggesting the very same thing, but I thought i'd be shouted of stage as it seems to me like it would take alot of work to implement. Err...can I ask how long it'll take? Roughly? Please? |
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Davairus
Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10351
Location: 0x0000
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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The hunger/thirst change actually happened when Resatimm or Ritase was about.
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This was added way back in 2000 or earlier, probably meaning it was added over the purge leading into second age.
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does dysentery affect regen like poison or plague did?
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It does that through a side-effect of hunger/thirst, but not directly.
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Adebaldi
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| hm brainstorming for ways to avoid blackj/strangle/sleep in loss of poison. |
Get wanted and stay in town. |
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Seryie
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 574
Location: Australia, Adelaide
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Im over-joyed it got changed, I had that initiating a fight with steal god that shit was annoying... woot.. |
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divsky
Emissary
 
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:54 am Post subject: |
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*I'm drunk.. it wak karokake night at the pub on base. I love karoake*
Then why would you make these changes to theives before these specializations were added? I've already seen people complaining about thieves doing nothing but blackjacking/prying, but I've yet to see -anybody- complaing about thieves prying out in the open. Why? Because you've got a better chance blackjacking the victim before prying anything off of them than you do if you just try to pry them in the open.
And I'm totally out in the fog why any thief would try to initiate combat whith steal or pry when far, far better alternatives, such as dirt kick, trip or backstab are out there to kill somebody with. Who are these thieves you keep referring to who are "abusing" steal and pry by initiating combat with them?
I just always thought the biggest problem with theives is that they rely on blackjack too much. And these changes are adding too these problems, rather than fixing them.
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I've always thought they relied way too much on blackjack and I've never liked that every single thief does nothing but goes around blackjacking people.
Every single thief, or every single thief you play?
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I've been trying hard to play a thief that doesn't do by the sterotypical AR thief RP of blackjack;pry;pry;pry, so I don't really appreciate you saying that's the only way I play my thief. In fact, I'm arguing that you're trying to make that kind of thief more powerful, and I'd rather see the thief have more alternatives than just blackjack.
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The problem is that if you're a thief already looking for a fight (or already in a tactical fight with the target), being caught stealing/prying has very few repercussions, and the eq gain is just the same as trying to do it stealthily. At least you can only blackjack so frequently, compared to stealing and prying.
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So why not just add a time delay to steal or pry, just like there is to blackjack, instead making blackjack the only real option available to thieves?
Also, have you actually tried to pry -anything- from an opponent while they're standing there awake. Please, try to tell me that the chances for that are greater than blackjacking/prying are. I'd love to see the numbers
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It might be "fun" but it's not so fun for the victim to lose equipment this way. (My thieves never bothered trying to steal, they outright killed since thieves are a fighting class--three attacks, dual wield, enhanced damage, etc, and they're plenty powerful in the right hands. You just need a bit more discretion than with playing as a berserker, say.) |
That's really great with your thieves. You choose to be another "kill 'em and take it all" thief. We've already seen too many thieves like that. If you want thieves to be an all-out fighting class, why not just take them out and let people just play warriors instead?
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Resatimm
Takes the Cake
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 980
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:34 am Post subject: |
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To Kalist:
Yes, I got given access to the code I forgot.
You forgot 3000 AC on the demon armorer, and the 4th zombie I could raise.
Retard, I dont have access to code, nor any main port editting features. Never have, and never will! Ever thought that perhaps it was overpowered because no one had ever animated it and realized? |
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Burzuk
Implementor
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Then why would you make these changes to theives before these specializations were added? |
Because rambo thieves are a problem now. And the other thief stuff aren't done yet. By adding this in along with the removal of constant damage from poison/plague though, it keeps steal/pry viable in the meantime (even if it's in a way that you personally don't like because it doesn't fit with your preferred RP style).
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I've already seen people complaining about thieves doing nothing but blackjacking/prying, but I've yet to see -anybody- complaing about thieves prying out in the open. Why? Because you've got a better chance blackjacking the victim before prying anything off of them than you do if you just try to pry them in the open.
[...]
Also, have you actually tried to pry -anything- from an opponent while they're standing there awake. Please, try to tell me that the chances for that are greater than blackjacking/prying are. I'd love to see the numbers |
Umm, I actually do have the pry chances per item slot in a file in front of me, thank you very much.
Depending on which slot you're prying off of, for certain slots the pry failure rate is lower than the blackjack failure rate multiplied by the modified pry failure rate. In other words, it's actually not always better to blackjack all the time to pry compared to a "standing pry", depending on which slot you're going after (and other factors like which race you're playing, etc). Steal is another matter entirely. Keep in mind that I've already reiterated that pry was never intended to be used on standing opponents when Stryth and I put them to begin with.
You'd like to see the numbers, but when have I ever given them out freely when asked? I don't know about you, but I'd rather based my decisions on the hard probabilities as given by the code than based on how often you "feel" these things come out.
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| And I'm totally out in the fog why any thief would try to initiate combat whith steal or pry when far, far better alternatives, such as dirt kick, trip or backstab are out there to kill somebody with. |
Because unlike other classes, thieves can strip items from players without actually killing them (disarm notwithstanding). Even if you're playing against someone who's rared out and has taken significant regenerative sacrifices to keep themselves poisoned, you can still strip them of equipment with standing steals/pries with no defensive options on their part. Now at least people have a defense against standing steals by moving to a non-hidable terrain, and standing pries are a thing of the past (like they were supposed to be in the first place).
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| I've been trying hard to play a thief that doesn't do by the sterotypical AR thief RP of blackjack;pry;pry;pry, so I don't really appreciate you saying that's the only way I play my thief. In fact, I'm arguing that you're trying to make that kind of thief more powerful, and I'd rather see the thief have more alternatives than just blackjack. |
Actually, I didn't even know you're playing a thief right now, since I generally don't keep track of individual players (I leave that to my staff). I bring up your thief playing style because your arguments seem to take into account only your personal experiences as a thief, without considering how others are using the class (for example, the "rambo" steal/flee, or just pry+dirt+spam trip outright PK, etc). I think it's great that you're trying to do something different with your thief and I can understand your frustration at having your efforts somewhat stymied by these changes, but other players play thieves very differently and this has become problematic for AR.
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| Who are these thieves you keep referring to who are "abusing" steal and pry by initiating combat with them? |
Why don't you ask your fellow players to name some names? I don't like to single mortals out in public unless it's something they've brought upon themselves.
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| So why not just add a time delay to steal or pry, just like there is to blackjack, instead making blackjack the only real option available to thieves? |
Because it really sucks to only be able to steal from someone once every 4 hours, like with blackjack?
Do you really want a timer on steal or pry?
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In fact, I'm arguing that you're trying to make that kind of thief more powerful, and I'd rather see the thief have more alternatives than just blackjack.
[...]
That's really great with your thieves. You choose to be another "kill 'em and take it all" thief. We've already seen too many thieves like that. If you want thieves to be an all-out fighting class, why not just take them out and let people just play warriors instead? |
I'm happy to lay my biases on the table--I've always been a PKer first and foremost, and when I played thieves I did play with a very PK-heavy style. However, I never did the initiate-with-steal/pry approach to combat because they simply didn't work that way back when I was a mortal. Obviously it did this way until now, and some thieves have been exploiting it pretty heavily--thus, I've changed it back to prevent it from being so easily exploitable. If I were playing a thief up until now I'd no doubt be using standing steal/pries to supplement my PKing, as many other fighting-happy thieves have been doing recently.
I like playing thieves (though not as much as I like ninjas) because they're not so straight-up in terms of the numbers game compared to pure fighter types. That's what makes them interesting for me. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
I'm actually glad to see you voicing the viewpoint of less combat-happy thieves, since I know you won't be the only one to have such concerns. That's why I've been developing these specialization options for thieves in the future (which I've already disclosed in a previous thread when I said that warriors and thieves would be given more customization options). For the time being, however, I'd like to address some current problems with some simple fixes first. It's just not fair to allow people right now to continue to be robbed blind during the middle of a fight. |
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Itiggidy
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with divsky on everything he said. Making these changes to keep blackjack/steal viable? how does that work. and btw irl a good thief can lift your watch, you walled, hell anything in your pockets while you stand there. people dont just sleep in the middle of an airport floor so they can be picked clean. and I don't see any people going around with lead filled sacks smacking people upside the head. you'll probably say, but this is AR and bla bla bla, but the principles are pretty much the same no matter what reality. these changes are only fixing a short term problem not being a long term solution. I esp. hate the poison change. I was never one to poison self to avoid bj, sleep, or strangle. I think you guys just like to stir us up with nonsensical changes.. |
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Seryie
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 574
Location: Australia, Adelaide
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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heres a quote for you.
Don't blame the people who fix the problem, blame the people who create and exploit it. If you really want me to name names, i've got a bunch of logs of stupid thieves like that. and if people want I can say who were the cheap bastards, cos that shit was annoying.
Good changes, I still stand by they were needed. |
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a_man201
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Thunder bay, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Well the thing is plague used to be the most affective spell you could have against Avian since it even says in the help file that they a very vulnerable. you want to kill him where ever they go so you use plague. Hopefully you wont change air thrash to work on people that walk but thats just my opinion hope you all agree |
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Jezikapine
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:26 am Post subject: |
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I'm kind of in agreement with Divsky. I agree it removes an entire vein of roleplay for thieves, turning even more halflings into bloodthirsty little bastards. I always envisioned thieves as being two types: pickpockets and murderers. Now, there will only be murderers until (possibly) the specialization kicks in. That said, I do like the change to pry.
Why would a thief want to initiate with steal? Unless you're fighting a countering warrior, it seems there are better options for the other classes. |
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LABruinCub
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Why initate with pry or steal?
Pry shield shaman... you failed... flee, flee, flee
Pry shield shaman... you failed... flee, flee, flee
Pry shield shaman... Got it! Dirt, trip, trip trip...
Pry light dkn... you failed... flee, flee, flee
Pry light dkn... you failed... flee, flee, flee
Pry light dkn... Got it! Trip, trip, trip... |
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Jezikapine
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| If you look at Burzuk's explanation for why the change to steal/pry was implemented, it was to prevent initiating combat with steal/pry. The way I was interpreting that was that the thief hoped for failure and this comment: "being caught stealing/prying has very few repercussions" supports that. I never said being able to steal a shield or light before combat was a bad thing, but I am still rather confused why one would want to initiate a fight i.e. fail with steal. |
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GodOfWar
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Kalifornicatia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| It's the fact that they would keep spamming steal/flee/hide. steal/flee/hide until item's gone or target's too annoyed to stay logged on. No lag like blackjack so it makes it such an easier tactic to get away with. |
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Sebryn
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 1185
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I am still rather confused why one would want to initiate a fight i.e. fail with steal. |
I don't see why you would...
Fail an attempt at stealing something potentially harmful in the hands of the wearer (which, in the event that your steal/pry fails, remains the case), only to have yourself lagged while getting bashed/tripped to death... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think a lot of thieves recently have seen Nourrin and others going steal/pry-happy lately with and without Justices present, and it's triggered a flood of steal/pry-mongers that either don't have the luck or the skill to accomplish the steal/pry-fest that higher-ranked/skilled thieves have been pulling off lately. Hence the resulting:
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You failed.
Victim yells 'Badthief couldn't rob his way out of a paper bag!'
Victim's bash sends you sprawling! |
How that's an advantage, I have no idea. I think it's just possibly an inaccurate interpretation of the motivations behind the recent thief boom. |
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Athaekeetha
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: Starting Fight |
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What Burzuk is saying, from what I gather, is that there is no deterrent to thieves starting the fight with a pry/steal attempt, they just flee, hide, recover if need be and try again. This could gaurantee as the above example shows, always fighting an opponent without a shield/light, etc.
What this means in effect is the situation that was just outlined above, ie: a theif can just use unlimited attempts to eventually pry off whatever they want. Sure they fail and initiate combat, but they can just flee and try again. And if the pry does work, well then they now have the advantage they were seeking.
With the new changes, they cannot initiate combat this way, ie: they have to blackjack before prying, so they cannot just keep trying indefinitely with little consequence (well, they can if they accept the blackjack lag when they miss and if they are willing to wait the 4 hours in between attempts for blackjack to wear off). |
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TheOneAndOnly
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 178
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Wanted to bring to your attention a bug. If you drink the herbal brew it says you are permanently affected by poison affecting both stats by 0. Just thought you should know. |
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divsky
Emissary
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| What Burzuk is saying, from what I gather, is that there is no deterrent to thieves starting the fight with a pry/steal attempt |
Except for them sitting there, completely exposed, waiting to get bashed, tripped or faerie fired, which between those three is something 90% of all the classes on AR are capable of. So no, the thief can't just pry, flee and hide over and over again if they're fighting a semi-competent opponent.
But, we have a flood of thieves on AR right now and too many people who don't know how to fight them and absoloutly insist that they're too cheap and there's nothing people can do to fight them.
And now, here's what gets me. We make it so that thieves can't steal upfront.. but then make it so there's no effective way to counter blackjack. And now I'm sensing that people will still complain about how cheap thieves are. But now instead they'll all be complaining about blackjack. Rightfully so, too, since there's no real effective way to keep a thief from sneaking up on you and blackjacking you to steal all your equipment anymore. Spells have save vs spell, you can move on water to prevent dirtkick, you can wear cursed weapons for disarm, you can fly for trip, bash has protective shield... but there's no way to help prevent a blackjack.
I think we've seen with ninjas what happens when a class becomes a one-skill-wonder. Don't do it to thieves. |
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GodOfWar
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Kalifornicatia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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<rant>
I'm sick of hearing all this constant whining about thieves being gimped. It's never been easy in life to be a thief, or to steal anything for that matter. ESPECIALLY if it's ON a person who is COMPLETELY awake and AWARE of their surroundings. I know this from personal experience(let's just leave it at that shall we).
So you can't grab your little goodies quite as easy now by spamming the shit out of steal/pry/flee. Now it takes a just a little more skill...OH SHIT...what am I gonna do now? Get over it.
Thieves, just like warriors are in the works for a little more tweaking and a little more diversifying to help make their gameplay a bit more interesting. In the meantime, why don't you try using the skill card for once instead of the spam card, and soon enough your little thief is gonna be in a much better spot. 
</rave> |
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divsky
Emissary
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I actually think these changes make thieves more powerful, since nothing now can stop blackjack. |
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