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Grunchel
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 80
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 Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Mikoos You need to hide a lot more and I don't think you know what dirt kick or blindness dust is. and ffs use sanctuary. Paladins have always been awesome it's just that a skilled player hasn't played one in a while so stop bitching. Remember the days when players actually had to go through a trial to be inducted? I miss those days. |
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Fireballe2
Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Clifton wrote: |
Because without stating the mechanics behind how weapon damage scales, going from an average 20 dangerous dagger (pretty common rare dagger) to an average 16 fiery dagger could be a straight 20% reduction.
Making these claims without providing the background information that supplement/verify the validity of these broad claims (e.g. wielding a magic weapon will bypass 8-10%, implying that you gain a straight 8-10% in DPS) in the face of demonstrably skilled players, i.e. Mkatos saying it's not as simple as wielding magic vs. non-magic, but rather that average damage, a/c, and a slew of other factors matters, makes you look like a loud-mouthed simpleton. This is why not 1, not 2, but many (if not a majority) of the current playerbase is calling you out.
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| I tried to help. You don't even have to take my word for it, you can test it once and then see if it sucks or not, recall, and then say I'm full of shit. |
The burden of proof is on you to show that you're not full of shit, not on everyone else to prove that you're not full of shit. I am more than happy to assume you're full of shit until you can demonstrate otherwise.
"When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof |
Burden of proof works both ways. If people are claiming X sucks without exploring all options, they're going to get shut down. The irony here is I claimed drow dk sucked, and I claimed that AC damage reduction was too good for paladins vs other classes and AC stacking ninjas vs other classes, and people exactly like you laughed and said I was full of shit because "my mid 20/30's logs weren't relevant of 'fair pk' (read: nothing has to be balanced except at 50). I even showed a log where I got more damage out of punching a ninja than using 16 avg weapons and unholy strength, and noone said "gee that seems wrong, it should get looked into". In fact, you guys said then what you're saying now. That's why I don't take it seriously when you say
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| makes you look like a loud-mouthed simpleton. This is why not 1, not 2, but many (if not a majority) of the current playerbase is calling you out. |
| Davairus wrote: |
Example: Before and after wearing a platinum plate:
| Code: |
| Armor Vs Pierce: 50 Saving Throws |
| Hitroll: 11 Vs Bash: 50 Afflictive: 0 |
| Damroll: 11 Vs Slash: 50 Maledictive: 0 |
| Vs Exotic: 50 Mental: 0 |
You wear platinum plate over your torso.
(Armor class is 9 pierce, 9 bash, 9 slash, and 3 vs. magic.)
| Armor Vs Pierce: 4 Saving Throws |
| Hitroll: 11 Vs Bash: 4 Afflictive: -4 |
| Damroll: 12 Vs Slash: 4 Maledictive: 0 |
| Vs Exotic: 28 Mental: 0 |
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Notice that I got ~46 armor vs slash from only 9 armor class. That indicates that the multiplier is 5.
Another thing that would be nice to include, is that the damage reduction has diminishing returns after a certain point (I think ~150 armor class). Its definitely not a useless stat, but it does become a premium to find. This is deliberately taken advantage of in the game actually. If you ever have a look at the stats on Winter eq - the equipment that provides the best damage bonuses - you would notice a distinct lack of any magic ("exotic") armor class on them. In fact magic armor class is generally really hard to find, which is why things like fiery dagger are very effective PK'ing weapons despite the weapon ave being lower than hell-blades.
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Bolded for emphasis.
As far as strict 8-10% damage compensation.
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| Armor Vs Pierce: -320 Saving Throws |
| Hitroll: 20 Vs Bash: -301 Afflictive: -10 |
| Damroll: 18 Vs Slash: -327 Maledictive: -7 |
| Vs Exotic: -240 Mental: -18 |
\==========================================================-/
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You can see that here, using slash vs using magic attack will give you 80 AC more to work through, meaning they get +8% damage reduction. If you have a slash weapon and a magic weapon of the same average, take the magic weapon. |
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Kato
 
Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Fireballe2 bro, do you even AC?
| Code: |
| Armor Vs Pierce: 594 Saving Throws |
| Hitroll: 47 Vs Bash: 635 Afflictive: 60 |
| Damroll: 36 Vs Slash: 578 Maledictive: 54 |
| Vs Magic: 513 Mental: 67 |
\============================= |
You're actually right that if you have the choice between a slashing weapon and a magic weapon of the same average/h/d, the magic will do more damage. Except magic weapons are predominantly exotic, and exotic is a shitty weapon type. Magic high-average swords? Yeah, I can think of one (Xel Morak). Maces? One, also unique. I can't even think of an axe fitting that description, and axes are a great weapon type. So if parry didn't exist, you would be right, but you really can't ignore it |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| why are you comparing things to hell-blades? I wouldn't wipe my ass with a hell-blade. It's extremely likely that unarmed damage is higher than the damage from a hell-blade |
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Vanisse
Immortal
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Nycticora wrote: |
| I wouldn't wipe my ass with a hell-blade. |
that would hurt |
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Thorgoth
Immortal
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 727
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Vanisse wrote: |
| Nycticora wrote: |
| I wouldn't wipe my ass with a hell-blade. |
that would hurt |
It would feel like..hell? See what I did there?
Anyways, I also ran into the same problem that Mikoos did, except I was a warrior fighting against a shaman. Normal damage output was massacres, but fighting the shaman I did injures/wounds with a heron-marked blade and 34 damroll. Good to see you guys found the fix. |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:27 am Post subject: |
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well this fix was specifically relating to ninja crafted weapons. A heron-marked blade would be unaffected. If you run into another case where it seems like your damage is too low, it'll be a different problem.
Most cases like this are working as intended, i.e. if that shaman had high AC he was probably lacking afflictive saves and the new invoker will eat him for lunch. Mkatos' run was exacerbated by a bunch of factors, including that there were some overpowered items (a couple rings and the warshield) and invokers were underpowered and/or boring depending on who you talk to and nobody was playing a competitive invoker during his time. |
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Andrael
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Nycticora wrote: |
| nobody was playing a competitive invoker during his time. |
So... Eloret doesn't count... sweet. |
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Olyn
Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3249
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrael wrote: |
| Nycticora wrote: |
| nobody was playing a competitive invoker during his time. |
So... Eloret doesn't count... sweet. |
A neutral invoker who isn't allowed to invade Legion cabal doesn't count. |
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Fireballe2
Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| One of those things I'm not too keen on is the concept that someone's a beast to other classes, but X class will own them. I should have one character of every general class at 50 (fighter, rogue, cleric, hybrid, mage) to swap out my characters that I play so that if I can't beat someone on my fighter, I can hop on my mage ftw. |
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Miley
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Olyn wrote: |
| Andrael wrote: |
| Nycticora wrote: |
| nobody was playing a competitive invoker during his time. |
So... Eloret doesn't count... sweet. |
A neutral invoker who isn't allowed to invade Legion cabal doesn't count. |
Mkatos was wanted/bountied multiple times though, correct me if I am wrong, but that makes Eloret able to invade. |
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Dogran
Immortal
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Miley wrote: |
| Olyn wrote: |
| Andrael wrote: |
| Nycticora wrote: |
| nobody was playing a competitive invoker during his time. |
So... Eloret doesn't count... sweet. |
A neutral invoker who isn't allowed to invade Legion cabal doesn't count. |
Mkatos was wanted/bountied multiple times though, correct me if I am wrong, but that makes Eloret able to invade. |
You never saw them on at the same time though either. And to my knowledge, the times he was bountied Eloret was not around. |
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Andrael
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Nadrin wrote: |
| Miley wrote: |
| Olyn wrote: |
| Andrael wrote: |
| Nycticora wrote: |
| nobody was playing a competitive invoker during his time. |
So... Eloret doesn't count... sweet. |
A neutral invoker who isn't allowed to invade Legion cabal doesn't count. |
Mkatos was wanted/bountied multiple times though, correct me if I am wrong, but that makes Eloret able to invade. |
You never saw them on at the same time though either. And to my knowledge, the times he was bountied Eloret was not around. |
He was once. I remember a log when Eloret invaded and killed Mkatos with a 48 healer and someone else around. not grouped up, just solo gangbang |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| there's no reason to make these huge retarded quote pyramids |
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Kato
Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Andrael wrote: |
| Nadrin wrote: |
| Miley wrote: |
| Olyn wrote: |
| Andrael wrote: |
| Nycticora wrote: |
| nobody was playing a competitive invoker during his time. |
So... Eloret doesn't count... sweet. |
A neutral invoker who isn't allowed to invade Legion cabal doesn't count. |
Mkatos was wanted/bountied multiple times though, correct me if I am wrong, but that makes Eloret able to invade. |
You never saw them on at the same time though either. And to my knowledge, the times he was bountied Eloret was not around. |
He was once. I remember a log when Eloret invaded and killed Mkatos with a 48 healer and someone else around. not grouped up, just solo gangbang |
Shamans used to, and still might, have an advantage over invokers. Invokers win in confine situations, but attrition is effective with space to move
And the pyramid grows  |
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Mikoos
Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:45 am Post subject: |
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I haven't noticed a difference at all, here's me dual wielding nunchaku:
<591hp 792m 378mv no opponent/no opponent city evasive >
You step out of the shadows.
Euriah yells 'Help! Mikoos just tried to strangle me!'
You fade into existence.
Your strangulation misses Euriah.
Euriah has some small wounds and bruises.
<591hp 792m 378mv blade/two_handed city aggressive >
fl
Your beating injures Euriah.
Your beating injures Euriah.
Euriah's rays DISEMBOWEL you!
Euriah has some small wounds and bruises.
<542hp 792m 378mv blade/two_handed city aggressive >
Euriah narrows his eyes.
Euriah's heavenly wrath DISEMBOWELS you!
You feel unclean.
Euriah has some small wounds and bruises.
<498hp 792m 370mv blade/two_handed city aggressive >
Your beating wounds Euriah.
Your weapon advantage overcomes Euriah's parry attempt.
Your beating mauls Euriah.
Your beating misses Euriah.
Your beating injures Euriah.
Euriah's rays DISEMBOWEL you!
Euriah's rays DISEMBOWEL you!
Euriah's rays DISEMBOWEL you!
Euriah has quite a few wounds.
<345hp 792m 370mv blade/two_handed city aggressive >
Me trying to assassinate after strangulating him :
strangle $$
You grab a hold of Euriah's neck and put him to sleep.
Euriah dozes off and falls from his mount!
Splat, his face falls flat on the ground!
Euriah goes to sleep.
<639hp 792m 236mv no opponent/no opponent inside aggressive >
((I look at him and see his EQ))
<639hp 792m 236mv no opponent/no opponent inside aggressive >
recite energy eur
You recite an energy scroll.
Others cannot aid Euriah on his quest.
Others cannot aid Euriah on his quest.
best part is my internet gave out mid fight for two hours ((probably due to 40+ MPH winds and ice on the lines)) yet I still survived thanks to hide. |
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Vayne
Joined: 26 Dec 2013
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Fireballe2 wrote: |
| One of those things I'm not too keen on is the concept that someone's a beast to other classes, but X class will own them. I should have one character of every general class at 50 (fighter, rogue, cleric, hybrid, mage) to swap out my characters that I play so that if I can't beat someone on my fighter, I can hop on my mage ftw. |
Um, I would assume there is a rule about multis here? Just thought I'd ask... I know it has nothing to do with the current discussion. |
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Fireballe2
Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Vayne wrote: |
| Fireballe2 wrote: |
| One of those things I'm not too keen on is the concept that someone's a beast to other classes, but X class will own them. I should have one character of every general class at 50 (fighter, rogue, cleric, hybrid, mage) to swap out my characters that I play so that if I can't beat someone on my fighter, I can hop on my mage ftw. |
Um, I would assume there is a rule about multis here? Just thought I'd ask... I know it has nothing to do with the current discussion. |
If you're going to make a rule that people can't have multiple high level characters I guess. Otherwise, you're not going to make a rule about multi which is going to stop someone from logging on a different character the next day to steamroll the FoTMs that people are currently playing. |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Vayne wrote: |
| Um, I would assume there is a rule about multis here? Just thought I'd ask... I know it has nothing to do with the current discussion. |
Yes, logging on one character to scope pk range and then logging in another character depending on circumstances is multi, and it's why we have a login delay. In reality, people don't actually do this very often (or the login delay prevents it from being a problem). |
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Fireballe2
Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| what I'm talking about is taking the long view. get a few 50's, and then if any cabal or certain classes start becoming a big pain, just log into the class that will repeatedly own them on a daily basis instead of your class that gets owned by them. When they're gone or they've lost their pimp suit, you can use your other character again. |
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