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"the fight continues"

 
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"the fighting continues" like it or not?
Yes, I like it.
27%
 27%  [ 5 ]
No, I do not.
22%
 22%  [ 4 ]
Not quite certain, but leaning toward Yes.
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
Not quite certain, but leaning towards No.
22%
 22%  [ 4 ]
I don't give a damn either way.
16%
 16%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 18

Author Message
Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 608

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:05 pm    Post subject: "the fight continues"

We've had plenty of time to get use to this new mechanic that was implemented to tune-down flee/murder. I'm very curious what everybody thinks about it. It's a pain in the ass being blinded and continually fleeing and walking back into your opponent. It's also very nice when you have your opponent dirted, hobbled or on the ropes and they walk back into you. This mechanic has worked more in my favor than not and has made it easier for me to secure some kills. I haven't been killed because of it either.

Overall, I'm not sure I like it. For one, I think it favors fighter classes. Specifically those who can hobble, bash, or trip.


What do you guys think? Please leave a comment if you vote. It's not required of course, but is nice to see specific feedback from the players. Thanks.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:47 pm    Post subject:

So I have two ideas here; one: let it be for thieves/shadows/bards only.. some sort of skill they can toggle to chase people down. The second idea I have is to remove it entirely and add a two round cooldown for murder. But then you would have to rollback the murder changes as well.

I see the battle continuing being advantageous for any class with lag skills/hobble, and any class with pets. I.E. fighters and mages minus invoker.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 169
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:38 am    Post subject:

On the contrary, I find that this "fight continues" mechanic actually is a nerf to fighter class. Because of the continuation of fights this way, fighter classes cannot flee/murder anymore which significantly reduces the damage output, especially against mages/clerics.

I don't understand what is the hate against fighters and why there is a need to buff rogues (thieves/shadows). Thieves are already annoying as fuck and shadows are actually pk-effective, they are not weak, it's just that they are not as popular.

I would love for the flee/murder mechanic to return, but that's me, because personally I do not like the nerf. On the other hand, my 200ms lag doesn't favor me flee/murdering anyway, so...
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:01 pm    Post subject:

I’ve had a lot of fun with this new mechanic. I think it’s actually showcasing all the skills that each class has to offer, instead of relying on getting decked and flee/murder your opponent to death. It also shifts the strategy significantly for where you fight and how you go about inputting your skills. On Thelrin’s graveyard, Hotun mentioned that he purposefully wouldn’t input anything so he could chase Thelrin down instantly when he fled. This makes securing kills for classes without lag skills a good bit easier as well, so not just fighter classes. In short, I’m game.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 701

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:26 pm    Post subject:

Flee/murder seems a rather poor mechanic to rely on, regardless. Anything that helps mitigate that mechanic is a shift in the right direction.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:22 pm    Post subject:

fix healers
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10369
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:03 am    Post subject:

I'm not really sure to make of this thread. It was obviously not going to win a popular vote to remove it from the game, flee-murder hurts the mage classes a lot. So, what was the point? If there are classes that overly depended on flee-murder to the point we think the previous implementors have neglected them on purpose (knowing they have viable strategy) then just go open some patch discussion.
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Xenyar
Emissary


Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 608

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:21 pm    Post subject:

Uh..I was curious what the community thought? This change has only helped me overall. Not trying to get it removed.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10369
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:42 am    Post subject:

Well, I was expecting to see some feedback bubble up. Like for example, berserkers. That class took a hit from no longer getting in the raged murders. It is probably justifiable now for rage to add decent damage reduction, maybe becoming a medium armor class that depends more on mobility than warriors do. We do need to get past "I like this" / "I dont like this" before there is any point talking about which classes need work now I guess. I just figured we did already. Even in testing it, the testers said "Not 100% sure but seems great so please dont remove it". Its an obviously novel idea, and "flee murder" can still be done but is more difficult to execute. Also, trying to balance spellcasters without addressing it clearly wasn't working.
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Vertas



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Ewa Beach, HI

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:21 am    Post subject:

Having played around with this a bit, I'm ready to provide a bit of feedback. I feel like there's always going to be some grumbling with big changes like this. The game very much rewards the murder flee style, with only really hard counters being counter (2/3rds of a pun intended) and autosneak or simply being faster and better, which is something we should reward people for.

That being said I do have some constructive criticism, some of which you will undoubtably just say I don't understand the mechanic properly, which is also probably true.

It doesn't make sense in some instances. A clumsy and battle inept spellcaster or a bulky high strength low dex warrior (paladin, whatever). Probably wouldn't have the reflexes to pull this off, so it maybe doesn't make sense here. It also punishes classes that have abilities that are required to initiate combat (rangers, rogues, probably some others I'm forgetting) that essentially make several skills less useful or only useful in specific instances. A bit of a disparity there, and probably not intentional, just something I wanted to point out.

What I like about it. It is a nice counter to the flee murder mechanic. The way to fight with a warrior used to be dirt, disarm, bash bash bash, flee if you get dirted too and sleep off dirt. It was a breath of fresh air when dirt kicking was changed and combat styles were added. It was unimaginative and doesn't allow for literally any other play style. Do I 100% feel flee murder was boring. Ehh yes and no, for reasons already stated.

If for some reason I were found to be in charge I would make it class (or maybe race specific given I just said higher dex) specific and throw it into a toggleable mode like reflex for warriors or something, then everyone would get mad at me for not having enough skill points on their already 50 characters and people still wouldn't be happy.

That's my two cents, I'm sure the more logs are posted and people fight we can get an idea of what skills (aside from mashing that murder target button) this impacts.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:16 am    Post subject:

Sense in a fantasy world. This is something i am still failing to grapple with. Sometimes i think you guys are putting too much "sense" into game mechanics.

A prime example would be the bash change. Oh, once you bash the guy is on the floor. Makes sense not to be able to bash again until he gets up. You cannot bash someone sleeping.

But a fighting round can happen when he's bashed on the ground? What the guy is doing ninjutsu on the ground swinging axes and maces slashing at people?

I just think we should not waste too much time on sense. If a warrior catches you sleeping, the bash should hit and 100% hit chance. You should die for getting caught with your pants down. That's my opinion.

Inept spellcaster low dex, nah, the game mechanic should apply across the board. This is a general mechanic.
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Vertas



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Ewa Beach, HI

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:16 am    Post subject:

Yeah I get it, a game like this requires suspending some belief. There's probably a happy medium there where we can "because magic" stuff and sense stuff. I'm with you there. I'm not going to try to change your mind/opinion, I don't think I'll get anywhere with that. Maybe I can share why I feel the way I do though. This game obviously has immersion as one if its core values though. RP is strictly enforced, good RP is rewarded. Am I resting my entire case of "mechanics should make sense" on that argument, absolutely not. Game mechanics should be fun and fair to (mostly) everyone. That's really the bigger picture. Yeah it doesn't make sense for someone to be able to attack nearly as well after being on the ground (because bash) but bash would be way too overpowered if it had that ability. Rule of cool says regular attacks can still happen because of that, and as far as I know the game has always been that way.

Not being able to bash someone who is still on the ground (after being bashed) or sleeping. That's more likely a balance thing and I can't speak to why the imps decided on that change.

Again you're welcome to view this as a "well if I agreed with you we'd both be wrong" sort of situation, and that's fine. We're not going to agree on everything.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10369
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:37 am    Post subject:

Ehh, we can do a dex roll if you guys want. Roll 10 + dex-15 to see if you continue fighting an opponent or something. That way its 50% for giants and 100% for pixies. Then haste/slow can make it better or worse each way. There's plenty of precedent to draw on to choose numbers that make sense. Checking for the dodge ability is a good way to ensure mages are caught for instance, but they can have spells (like blur) too
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 169
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:22 am    Post subject:

this fight continues shit is fucking retarded
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:16 pm    Post subject:

Yeah, all it took was one person abusing the mechanic with a trigger to make me agree. This sucks.

The worst part is - I really like what 'the fighting continues' did to fighting in general. Flee/murder spam sucked because it wasn't optimal for many classes to use their actual abilities - just get decked and flee murder to victory. Boring.

Maybe there's a fix here, but a lot of damage is done already.
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Mogu



Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2024 2:29 pm    Post subject:

I agree. Don't want to go back to spamming flee/murder but knowing how easily the new mechanic can be abused is disheartening. Spitballing ideas but maybe there can be some sort of built in lag for the aggressor to follow a fleeing victim if the aggressor isn't inputting commands besides cardinal directions.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10369
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:30 pm    Post subject:

i already put a surgical tweak, give it a chance.
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