Dark Knights

[Faelon]

Okay - So I posted this in Bugs and Observations, because I put in some information that is a bit sensitive. So I am going to remove that information and put it here, because I don't feel like I am getting anywhere not putting it on a public channel.

The Dark Knight updates are massively over powered.

Noticed a few things regarding the balance of this class -

Abyssal Bulwark/Fell Spark - This seems a bit tad over the top right now. It is essentially the same thing as vampiric touch, except that other people can't see how much you have left when they are fighting you as they can with HP. Specific example -OMITTED - Also - the abyssal bulwark energy heals like HP and at the same recovery rate. Meaning you get a double regen as a Dark Knight.

Vile and Malevolence - A malediction ability with no save attached to it.

Unholy Strength - This ability was nerfed a bit, but still gives you mana regen upon each successful strike on a Mob or player. To this affect, if you run around a bit attacking low level creatures and using fell spark, you are essentially healing yourself and maintaining your mana, or increasing it. Example - OMITTED - There is no ability in the game which will negate any damage type from HP. Some will negate physical, or spell - but not all with no ability to bypass or change up routes of attack.

Scrolls and Nightmare - It seems like one should be chosen, but not both. Flying comes with down falls and so does the nightmare. However, when you kill it, it explodes and poisons the person killing it. Recite flying and continue as you were, negating one of the biggest advantages of killing the nightmare - Running a foe into the ground -

Pulverize - I've brought this up before, but I feel like it needs to be said again. You can put someone to sleep, or do backstab style damage. Giving the dark knight the ability to blind, plague, poison and then it's all over bar the bashing. Like aura's, there is no saves against this.

This class is suddenly a mixture of the best of every other evil class in the game, instead of a stand alone class. Example;

Pulverize = Blackjack + Backstab
Blind = Shaman
Plague = Shaman
Poison = Shaman
Curse = Shaman
Compulsion - I don't even know what the this ability was added for
Contagion - a dkn only skill that is similar to deteriorate
Unholy damage = Gimped Frenzy + Combat related trance
Bulwark = Regeneration (Double healing on ticks)
Fell spark = Healing (25 per spark) which is similar to cure serious, an ability that even paladin's can only use outside of combat.
Lag abilities - Bash and trip
A host of Affliction spells - Fball, Iball, Lightning bolt and lastly Harm
Protection = Shaman
Curse weapon - making dkns never without a weapon and it beefs the weapon up

This is keeping the list short -

To wrap up - A dark knight is a Warrior/Thief/Shaman/Invoker and a Dark Knight with it's own skills not related to anything else all in one ball.

Some of these abilities I can see as good class adjustments. But all? This class was left massively over powered.

[Davairus]

Seems like a hatchet job... really.

The class is mid-updates. It will eventually require the player to "spec" so that they have to choose between some tools. Ideally this would be done but it isn't done. Can't hurry creativity.

[Faelon]

I don't want to hurry it, it just seems premature to give a class a bunch of stuff they are going to lose later on.

[Vevier]

I feel dkns need a hard fix until the specialization is ready. Force one spec or another, because they're too powerful as they stand right now.

[Davairus]

I don't see anything changing to DK without clearer and more carefully fielded feedback. We've beaten around this bush before, hundreds of times. You have to provide logs to support what you are saying, you have to post constructively and if you want to be listened to, don't resort to outright condemning things with phrases like "massively overpowered" - saying something like that completely changes the tone of the entire conversation. you have gone on the offense and you will see a defensive response and that is you who caused it.

[Nycticora]

Starting from the top:

Abyssal bulwark does not heal like hp heals on ticks. If you have played a DK there is no excuse for this error. You are being drastically alarmist here.

Malevolence may or may not be slightly over the top and this is currently an intentional design decision. I am keeping an eye on the two DKs in the top 5 and currently they are within expectations.

Unholy Strength is not going to change drastically by my hand. I love the skill as-is and what it brings to the table. It might need to scale a little lower in low levels but it is fine where it is at 50 with amplify removed.

Scrolls and Nightmare are unrelated to each other. There are flying potions anyway, scrolls have both benefits and drawbacks compared to potions. You might have a lot of work to prove an issue here but go nuts I'm listening.

Pulverize needs to be nerfed a little bit in ways I have planned already, but it is not out of control.

Pulverize is not backstab. That is ridiculous.
DKs get blind, poison, plague, and curse. Deal with it. It is my opinion that shamans are currently slightly underpowered (except for one mechanic that was so stupid and poorly thought-out I don't even want to talk about it right now).
Compulsion is a nerf to Charm Person for elite players and a buff to charm person for shitty and mediocre players. I am actually rather proud of it. If there is a problem here it deserves its own thread.
Contagion is slated to receive potentially drastic changes.
Unholy Strength is not changing
Abyssal Bulwark does not give double healing on ticks and it is borderline dishonest for you to claim it does

Fell spark does not heal 25 per spark and it is not cure serious it is obviously vampiric touch that is nerfed vs mobs (black lightning kills low level mobs faster) and buffed vs casting on players. This is powerful but probably not overpowered, at least not drastically.

Lag skills are fine.
Affliction spells cannot be altered without deep thought. Harm is nerfed for DKs and lightning bolt is obsolete.
DKs get protection and Paladins do, too. That's not likely to change.
Curse weapon is awesome and it is not a suitable replacement for a rare weapon.

A DK is not a warrior, he only gets 3 attacks and has inferior defenses.
A DK is not a thief, he can neither hide nor see hidden. He cannot wield bows and cannot steal or pry. Thieves are unarguably underpowered.
A DK is not a shaman, he has no staying power and cannot skirmish while using Unholy Strength.
A DK is not an invoker. Invokers deal monstrous AoE damage and have incredible defense and staying power.

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To wrap up, I want to point out that currently the primary problem with DKs and the issue that I need to solve before continuing any additional DK changes is related to weapon advantage and DK vs Warrior, Ranger, and Berserker. DKs currently have a pseudo- weapon ward that is tied to unholy armor and that needs to either go away or change. It is by far the biggest problem with DKs and it really surprises me that you missed it by a mile and took a detour into crazytown. If DKs are overpowered (by which I mean more powerful than alternatives not "able to kill other classes") it is because of 3 classes they are supposed to have trouble with having weapon advantage skills that whiff against them.

If they are drastically overpowered I don't have any proof of it yet since no DKs are dominating the 50s. Ask Szrabac what he thinks. There have been several DKs to hit 50 since the current round of changes went live and none of them have gone wild or needed an HGOD.

If they are slightly overpowered (under 50) that is a problem for a later date. I am not currently concerned by this since the majority of players blast through the low levels without even encountering a PK.

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I really butchered your commentary so I am going to ask Davairus to read this and correct me if/where I am wrong and add his two cents. Feel free to reply to continue the discussion because I am not attacking you. I do think you're totally shooting in the completely wrong direction though.

[Davairus]

Flee lag being removed from dirt was definitely a big deal.. that should be addressed. The pseudo-weapon ward was put in because of that vulnerability. We no longer need it.

[Faelon]

http://www.abandonedrealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=76322#76322

Log proof of a few of the things I was saying.

I really do detest being called a liar.

EDIT -

As an aside, I was pointing out that taken together these skills are over the top. I said that at the end of my post. I didn't say you should drop protection - for paladins or dkn's. Or any other specific skill - only that all together it is too much. This is my opinion - I know a few other people feel the same way.

I wasn't attacking you or anyone else. I am irate about this class, yes, but that isn't a reflection on you or anyone else. I think you are doing awesome things for this game and I say so frequently. I have the utmost respect for the imps and imms in this game. If my post above came off as an attack, that wasn't intentional and I apologize for it.

[Faelon]

You're awesome Nyct.


A few things - You were right regarding the double regen, I must have thought I saw something I didn't while playing. I posted the log incensed and didn't really take the time.
You did also evade the point - DKN's are getting extra regen. Fast healing + extra regen per tick. Up to a maximum amount in bulwark. They have essentially increased their regeneration abilities. Is that less alarmist for you?

FYI - Dishonesty is intentional - Mistakes are not.

As far as the ability being LIKE backstab. You are right, it doesn't do the "Same" amount of damage. It is a bit less. It is like charge. Regardless, I likened it to blackjack/backstab to make a point, that you seem eager to evade - Dark Knights have been given an ability akin to another class that either - A) Knocks someone out - or B) Does a good amount of damage to an unsanced target (Also, it hits twice if someone is hasted, likely a bug, but never the less) and is proving not to be counter-able that I have seen and has no saving against it.

I am ringing the alarm bells - we have a playerbase of a max of 15 or so this month, so it isn't going to be easy to tell when a class is over the top. I can tell you that there are two level 50 DKN's in the top 5, a point which you raised - one of them was only barely taken down by two players just recently.

EDIT

Just used fell spark - it gave me exactly 25 points in to bulwark.

[Vevier]

It seems to me that a lot of the issues with dark knights is that they have too many abilities that don't follow the rules. Typically a class only has one maybe two skills tops that don't have saves against them which you can boost. Thieves might have more, but that's all thieves do (steal, blackjack). DKNs have a bunch of abilities that there is no counter for. I can't switch to a magical weapon to get around their magic shield, I can't buff mal so they don't sleep me, I can't buff anything to not take a huge negative for just standing next to them.

[Ergorion]

You can counter any dark knight by just running away.

[Vanisse]

my best friend the hills

[Mikoos]

fighting them like they're clerics is basically the only way to finish them.

[Andrael]

from my experience, with toying around with a dk after the changes were dropped, the bulwark, is not a 'second' life... it gains in cap as your hp goes down. If the dk had enough mana to spend, like a drow dk, he could sit and keep it up all day just by spamming it. but that has it own unique things. Bulwark have its own weaknesses. I would say something like, holy type damage? Wraths(Unholy as well from Zxel) should be able to penetrate the shroud of evil surrounding them. It makes sense. Divine power, wrath. probably about it. No rays or light based damage, there's enough of that around. But yeah.

The pulverize, I never did play around with. And I feel that it shouldn't be used other than knocking someone out. I mean, yeah if you mess up a blackjack it does damage. But it shouldn't do more than a normal, un-enhanced weapon strike. I mean, hell before the changes, Rheloth was one of those people that most fled from.

One thing I'm curious about through, is if a Dkn becomes a Vamp, do they get to keep pulverize? Because it could end up being far more reliable than {vamp "sleep" spell} if so.

[Davairus]

[Faelon]

[quote]a fierce attack on someone or their work, especially in print.[/quote]

I wasn't specifically attempting to 'attack' someone's work. The implication being that I was targeting it because it was that 'someones' work. I was targeting it, because I feel it isn't a good idea for this game.

Attempting to publicly humiliate someone who is interested in the welfare of this game, seems like not the best plan.

[Nycticora]

I have pretty thick skin so it's not like it will really bother me.

I know that you feel like I'm not giving you complete answers, but you have to understand I know just about everything there is to know about DKs. I can't go any deeper or directly refute your argument as a whole without making what is essentially a "how to play as and against DKs" guide that everyone will see. It would be like spoilers.

My final answer is that right now they are a bit unfinished but playable and almost certainly not underpowered. Feel free to wreck the house with one if you can.