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Enhance Armor

 
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zurcon



Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:59 pm    Post subject: Enhance Armor

The only negligable affect of enhance armor is that it makes your armor impossible to wear to other classes... So I guess that means people will sac my gear if they loot it ? =)

Please, when I enhance armor (for instance) I get the following bonus:
5 vs slash 5 vs bash 5 vs stab 5 vs magic
=enhance armor=
6 vs slash 6 vs bash 5 vs stab 5 vs magic

Judging from most rom muds, (and this one showing no signs otherwise) AC is absolutely pointless past level 10 or so =P. AC affects how often someone misses against you.. and that pretty much stops as soon as you get out of mudschool.

How about +1 through +10 hps on successfully enhanced armor?
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Seryie



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 574
Location: Australia, Adelaide

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:29 pm    Post subject:

I personlly don't use this skill, I heard when you cast enhance armor on something, it adds rotdeath and this is why I didn't and never will practice it.
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zurcon



Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:37 pm    Post subject:

Hurray for the number crunchers. 1 prac = 1 hp?

Anyway.. one of my pet peves about rom muds are power gamers who don't even practice.. they just spam every skill to 100%.

In any case, this spell needs help.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:17 pm    Post subject:

There's already a long thread in the training grounds (newbie forum) discussing ac. Why don't you take a look at that? Assuming you already didn't. By the way rotdeath means it crumbles into dust after you die, which does make it pointless practicing, if you happen to die regularly.

You might want to try enhancing something better than a fur jacket or whatever that was. The benefit will be depending on what the parent item was like. Also, recall that in ROM muds, various slots have an AC multiplier so a 1 point gain to that item would go quite a bit further.
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zurcon



Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:29 pm    Post subject:

Right, apparently the ac in AR is exactly like it is in stock rom.... In other words useless.

Which makes enhance armor useless (which is something everyone already knew).

Which is why I'm wondering what you think of the suggestion for +1->+10 hp
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Sebryn



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 1185

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:52 pm    Post subject:

Since you haven't played a character to 50 yet, and you apparently seem to think that every psionicist spell you've mentioned thus far is either A) useless, or B) in dire need of a total reworking, what exactly makes you think that your opinion on how to improve said spells is going to be given much thought?

I'm just curious...
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:56 pm    Post subject:

Each point does contribute to a small amount of damage reduction, so its not completely useless. The thac0 breaks down at 30, the small reduction in damage doesnt not. Show me someone who leaves the armor spell at 1%. I've suggested a few times to the other imps to have AC checks in defences but they've not been too over the moon about the idea and frankly neither have I.

A spell that adds 10 hp to armors is going to be problematic, that would make it possible for level 50 psis to have 1200 base hp or so if they put the effort into it. Thats doubled by pyramid, increased further by your defences, and then again by bio feedback, again by displacement (which also dodges spells), again by any resistances you have - illithids resist blunt - then again by AC (but not by so much, which is sensible at this point). Improving the base hp through equipment with spells isn't an idea I am very enthusiastic about since its going to hit all those multipliers.

As for psis in general, yes they have a lot of useless skills, but they also have more than their fair share of stuff which is too good and its just a matter of recognizing what that is - they're easy to spot. I suggest you run a comparison of them with healers, warriors and invokers before posting another thread about yet another useless skill found on them.
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zurcon



Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:17 am    Post subject:

Sebryn wrote:
Since you haven't played a character to 50 yet, and you apparently seem to think that every psionicist spell you've mentioned thus far is either A) useless, or B) in dire need of a total reworking, what exactly makes you think that your opinion on how to improve said spells is going to be given much thought?

I'm just curious...


I've mentioned two spells with interest towards usefulness. (Ego Whip), and (enhance armor). Both spells are effectively useless to me. I started the topics in the interest of finding out what others knew. When I found out that my knowledge was pretty much comprehensive, I suggested balances as per the forum description:

Quote:
Gameplay forum - for discussions of cabal issues and balance issues, including skills, spells, and all other aspects of player killing. Discussion of cabal powers and vampires is prohibited.


Furthermore, I've mentioned more than these two spells, and I am more than pleased with the power of displacement, and iron will. I'm unsure what bio feedback does, but I'm hopeful that it's decent damage reduction. At no point did I intend or stress any urgency to these matters. As such, I don't think I'm crazy to say that (Dire need) is an exaggeration.

So in the process of using this forum I've received feedback and knowledge from people who have already played psionics. This, on its own, means that my endeavor has been successful. Furthermore, I've gotten responses from the coders. This too, is a success.

Which brings us back to your response, Sebryn. It is neither constructive nor accurate. It is, in fact, quite condescending. Based on your position of condescending ignorance (you don't exactly know me or my credentials), I would wager a guess that your stock in this community will drop a miniscule amount as a result of this elaboration of your ambivalence.

Not that this matters, in the grand scheme of things. After all, this is just a forum covering the small community of players and administration of a mud. The internet is anonymous, and so long as we don't find out each others names (and look up phone numbers in internet directories), we're not obligated to build this community at all.

Flame on.
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zurcon



Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:22 am    Post subject:

Davairus wrote:
Each point does contribute to a small amount of damage reduction


Davairus wrote:
first of all the chief function of ac is to create "misses", not to lower damage.


Forgive my confusion, these two statements are contradictory. Which one is correct?
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a ponderer



Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 96
Location: Hawai`i

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:50 am    Post subject:

both of them:
Its chief aim is to create misses, but it ALSO contributes to your damage reduction

you also need to relax just a bit, you will be flamed plenty in your time on this forum, it will save you much time to just ignore it, as your replies (however correct they might be) will iether be flamed as well or ignored. Smile
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Baer



Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 618
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:54 am    Post subject:

For future reference, please edit your posts instead of posting a reply right after another post of yours, it takes up bandwidth and is just an all around waste.

This is a forum rule.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:19 am    Post subject:

By "chief function" I meant "primary function", which I figured was enough. The damage reduction errs on the negligible side, but I wouldn't be complaining about getting it in addition to good stat. The "miss" thing for melee is the most significant contribution it makes to hp. That just goes limp after 30-ish, because this thac0 was designed for a 30 level MUD, and its since been expanded to 50 levels.

Revamping thac0 is on the to-do list, so don't fret about it. But don't expect it to ever be wonderfully powerful. You won't see "frail" mages decking themselves out with -500 AC to walk around with like 10% damage reduction. We've got sanc, parry, protection, blur, displacement, as well as spells like word of recall, phase shift, prot shield and fly scrolls to deny fighters commands, and rivers to prevent dirt kicking for them - the MUD has been adapted to having gimpy ac. In fact, if any significant AC contribution is ever added, its probably gonna be stolen right back out of those aforementioned things. Which will you prefer?
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Sebryn



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 1185

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:23 am    Post subject:

Let me start by saying that my post wasn't meant as an outright flame (there are several others here far more capable than I of achieving that level of dickheadedness), but instead was meant to draw focus on the fact that you've made several posts recently while not having played the game thoroughly enough to have what I would consider an above average opinion on the topics of game balance and mechanics. Allow me to pull in a few of said posts for reference...

In reference to spells not landing:
Quote:
Against a barb in full hit-dam gear at low levels I failed 5 sleeps. I have 25 intelligence. What gives? (level 19)

How are mages and maladictive / afflictive classes supposed to fight if their shit doesn't land against someone completely unprotected from mental?


And again:
Quote:
Psionics also don't have anything that acutally does damage at level 19. If it weren't for an OOC person I know who plays a fire giant berserker I wouldn't have anyone to grup with. In many days of asking around, I've never gotten myself into a group by myself. Me and my friend get other people in our group.. but if I play alone no one will group with me.. because I can't even contribute damage

My role in a group is to remain invisible, not get attacked by mobs.. and to watch where for PK ppl.

I know that "psionic blast" is supposed to be good, but that's high level. Why are there a progression of shitty-as hell (injures) (wounds) (scratches) type psionic spells??? They're completely worthless, and I'm sorry I put the practice into them. IF there's a progressoin, they should all be useful at the levels they're given out.

Meanwhile, healers get disrupt undead which (for some fucking reason) works on living targets and does *** DEVASTATES *** at my level??? Wtf kids?

The best way to handle a spell progression is to get rid of all the various "lesser" versions, and stick with one version that gets better as you level.


And again:
Quote:
You might also want to seriously consider dam-caps for levels. Guys doing 60-80 damage per hit at level 20 is not right (and that's not even through vuln).


And again (this time you kindly opened with asking if the Imps are "open to suggestions":
Quote:
If you are open to suggestions, level should have nothing to do with landing spells. IN stock rom every level you have over the person you're trying to land a maladiction on is like -4 saves for him. A lot of spells have an absolute cutoff.. Like I don't think you can actually put to sleep something that has a level over you. (lame).

In retrospect, this guy may of had 1 level on me. But from reading the thread blow I get the idea that the spell/saves situation is pretty much like stock rom.. which is to say, don't try to land anything fancy, just do damage.


Referring to 'pyramid of force':
Quote:
I've heard that this spell surpasses sanctuary in terms of "defense". Obviously, only psionics get it. With only parry and hand to hand at my disposal, I was hoping that this would be drastically better than sanctuary.

Turns out that I can't really detect any substantial difference between sanctuary and pyramid of force at my level (24). Does this spell get better with levels or something? I haven't seen any evidence of psionic skills which progressively get better.


Also in regard to 'pyramid of force':
Quote:
So it should probably be toned up.


And again:
Quote:
* According to popular opinion, they don't resist damage any better than anyone else.

* Bio Feedback is progged on an item I found in my first week of playing.

* They avoid lag as well as any other mage, just in a different way.

Therefore:
They are no more a royal pain in the ass to kill than another mage.
You have no point.

Admittedly, the verdict is still out (I need more levels). So far, psionics are just weaker mages. If pyramid of force were as cool as it sounded, then at least psionics would have a bit of a "damage reduction" niche.


Then we move to 'ego whip':
Quote:
Ego whip does a cumulative -1 to hitroll at my level (24). Its damage is pretty terrible, and I was assuming that it did -2 hit, or -5 hit per shot at this point.

Because it hasn't done it yet, I've sort of lost hope that it will. At any level, -1 to hitroll is too negligable to mean anything. If this spell doesn't do it already, I think it'd be more then sensible to have it do -10 to hitroll at level 51.

Why does this make sense? Because A) you can save against the affect. B) 5 successful landings of it would put people at around 0 hitroll. and C) I think that's more than fair.


'Ego whip' again:
Quote:
Fine being useless?

Nice arguement.

Psionics should be able to drain every last point of hitroll out of a person with this spell. The way it is, it'd require over 100 castings to accomplish that.

Great spell!! =not=


Then this comment, which came from who the hell knows where:
Quote:
You still hit all the time with negative hitroll =)


Then comes the thread we're currently in, which I won't bother paraphrasing, since I'm making the assumption that anyone bothering to keep up thus far is entirely capable of scrolling up and reading through your comments here. My post wasn't in reference to your questions or comments not having merit or being out of place; God knows I've asked my share of questions, both in-game and on the forums.

My post was directed at the fact that I've only seen you on the forum for around a week now (the first post I saw was on 6/2, today being 6/7), so I made the assumption that you're new to AR. You joined the forum five days ago, and every thread you've started has involved psionicists, which I can also safely assume is the class you've been playing thus far.

Again, I wasn't trying to imply that the forum isn't designed for questions being asked by those wishing to increase their knowledge of the game; I was simply attempting to infer that you might wish to play the game a bit more thoroughly before offering all of your comments about how "stock ROM muds act this way, so AR should be changed using this methodology". It's one thing to ask questions if you're curious about a skill, spell, or other aspect of the game. It's another thing entirely to jump into a discussion on how an entire class should be rewired because you're offering your week-old synopsis on "the different shades of psionicist gameplay."

Granted, I'm not saying that psis don't NEED work. However, with some of your suggestions (-1 hitroll as a cumulative effect? With the damage that psis can take, that would be insanely overpowered...), I'd simply suggest that you take more than a week's time to flesh out a character and see just how the spells augment each other at later levels in the game.

Ultimately I'd offer the advice of ranking said psionicist to 50 and seeing how the meat grinder treats you there, where the game is as balanced as it currently can be, and perhaps then offering suggestions on how to improve the class(es)/race(s) that you've had time enough to examine thoroughly. Until then, my opinion that your 'AR vivisection' is a tad premature still remains.
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Burzuk
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Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 529

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:33 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I've mentioned two spells with interest towards usefulness. (Ego Whip), and (enhance armor). Both spells are effectively useless to me.


I think psionicists themselves as a class are of marginal use, but I've voiced my displeasure on many occasions regarding this class, the coder of this class, and the former Imms who decided to implement it into the game while the owner of the mud at the time (Stryth) was absent.

Despite that, however, a few useless skills are the least of worries regarding psi's. Unimaginatively ripped-off skills from other classes, lack of combat variety, inconsistent treatment of gameplay mechanics (such as using save vs mental as a damage regulator, for example), and of course useless spells round out the package of woes that is psionicists. Suffice it to say that psi's are, bar none, the worst class to use to get a handle on AR.

Sounds like you lost the draw on the class choice.

Quote:
I started the topics in the interest of finding out what others knew. When I found out that my knowledge was pretty much comprehensive, I suggested balances as per the forum description:


Your "comprehensive" knowledge is composed of a series of extractions from ROM. On some issues AR is almost entirely ROM, while in others it has some complete overhauls to the engine under the hood. The AC system was not overhauled, so some of your generalizations about its usefulness (such as how THAC0 fails to extrapolate properly above level 20 for "misses", for example) are in fact correct. However, there were further damage reduction equations grafted onto the ROM code for AR to make it more relevant. (For example, AC's effectiveness is not linear on AR.) While AC here on AR is nowhere as central to combat as it is in a d20 system, it is definitely not as completely useless as it was in the stock code--Davarius's point about even experienced players spending the practice in the armor skill for a measley -20AC is salient, since the damage reduction is small but measurable. (I never bothered practicing armor on the other ROM muds I've played, but I do with my AR chars.) It never rises to the point of becoming a battle-deciding factor (as it can in a d20 system), however, nor should it. But if you're in the habit of stacking as many advantages as you can, AC is one of the easier factors to manipulate.

Having played about a half-dozen ROM muds seriously (i.e. advancing mortals to highest levels and PKing with them--this doesn't include the many other ROM muds that I've logged on to while shopping around) I do see where you're coming from. But I would be wary before drawing too many extrapolations from stock code. AR maintains the very simple, down-to-earth ROM gameplay, but the differences in gameplay mechanics can be subtle and may take time to coax out. For example, AR handles the extremes of combat in interesting ways (like the non-linearity of AC I mentioned). Were I in your position, I'd worry about trying out different character classes and finding one to your liking first before making definitive pronouncements about AR's gameplay (to varying degrees of accuracy).

In light of the larger issues facing psi's, your critiques of these couple of psi skills miss the forest for the trees.
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