Legion nerfed

[Davairus]

[Insom]

First of all,

I frequently logged in with Groq but not Azaran and never Groq, Azaran together to just quit out at the same time. Check the logs, I rarely played the same hours as Azaran. 2nd of all, it was my fault for not reading the cabal conduct rules, of which i apologized and opted out of legion. In the very beginning, I stated that my rp was going to be deceit and trappings, I tend to think it went well along those lines. It certainly did not fit the lines of any cabal nor cabal conducts. But that was the reason why i frequently used cabal guardians and what not. But I did fight solo when I was a legion when I had to, ask Jurard.

And one last thing, I dont think you mean Gurion, I think you meant Geron.

[b00mslang]

wait, so 2v2 battles are still allowed?

am I missing something here?

[Davairus]

Just to clarify I meant Geron not Gurion, the fire giant berserker not the elf.

[Clifton]

Okay, so. Legion are meant to be feared. Legion aren't meant to be assassins. Fear comes from having the ability to kill you whenever or wherever, in game. Gangbanging is not fear, that is power in numbers. Assistance is not fear, that is using outside resources. From what I've been hearing it seems as if Legion should (with legit reason) be a bit more like assassins and less than the Holy Gangbang of DOOOOM.

Two problems with that that I see. 1) What's excessive use of resources? What is the difference between gathering a whole helluvalot of purple potions to gain sanc or just gaining it from a shaman when it is available? I understand how haste you can't get from resources you gain yourself, but with sanc you can gain it from other means, so why not choose the easier route. This extends to potions of cure critical, cure serious, etc.. etc..

and 2) what if you know that there is no other way to defeat the opponent. The most recent examples I've heard of is when Remonis got aid from Zrakalon to kill Taurth. Human monk using fists versus stone giant warlord berserker. I don't see a way for a monk's punches to outdamage giantskin, so maybe Remonis' tactics were called for. But if Legion protocle called for unaided solo fighting, Remonis would only have two options:

"Clifton (9:43:51 PM): what is a monk supposed to do against a stone warrior berserker warlord?
Sebryn (9:46:20 PM): you want my answer? You fucking run or get your ass handed to you..." (this was the third time of asking him since he'd smokescreened the other two times) (god ol' ar philosophical debate, I love it)

Just for humor, the first two answers:

Sebryn (9:44:44 PM): I was just saying, if you can't handle a fight don't start one... don't attack the Warlord cabal unless you can hold your own...

Sebryn (9:45:51 PM): nobody forced you to join Legion... you guys are at war, you gotta do what you can... I can't tell you 'what' to do, but you guys all know the situation you're in...

Point being, even when being Elite, there are some battles that just don't favor you.

[Louis]

niladein and co., voicing my opinions and disagreeing with you is just that. and my reasons for doing so is not because i want something for myself as you like to believe. its because i have my personal vision of an ideal mud just as you do. and they seem to be very different.

kragon's quote: "If legion is too powerful, why don't vets start making warlords and knights?"
*my input: how about justices? you will get alot of guaranteed brush ins with legions.

seriously.. every time i felt like i wanted to join legion i was turned off when i told myself "damn, i really don't want to be a part of this group. i'd rather just go against all of them." but then again the most respected/feared characters in the game are the Legion because of the cabal's infamous past, and it was a tradeoff.

so about legion, i have a good case in point: Vashious thinks he's badass and wants to take me on. he gets a haste from katriena and Vashious waits for me at daycare, asking me to fight him 1 on 1. i tell him, so you want to fight me with haste? but i walk out of town and he two or three rounds me. of course he was hasted and of course i should have worded after round 1, but i wanted to fight. i don't have too much problem with legions spelling up each other but when you use it too much, your respect level goes down, which is something that should be a priority for all legions. that's why i'm saying it may not be such a bad thing after all, i'm not agreeing just to agree. in fact, i'll reiterate that i think banning all spell aid is rough.

edit: all this talk about assassins is making me increasingly sure that my prediction (for the next cabal to get the axe will be Assassin) is right.

edit2: niladein, i didn't mean to call you out and make an example of you. i was just using you as an example that could have easily been replaced with "weak sanc'ing shaman forsaken." i'm not saying this is an elaborate plan to oust you, it is just an effort to change the direction of legions. if you feel slighted, its not what i was aiming for.

edit3: i wish i could show you Githnaru's old Legion application. it's great. the part i specifically remember about it is that he would "be feared and respected with or without the legion" and that the legion would only be a marginal addition to his power.

[Davairus]

This is for Clifton:

Monks punches vary, so you don't just do punches, you do "lightning kicks" etc, they're not purely physical so that rules that out. In addition, monks have been given special forms to hit vulns for damage, even mental vulns. They also have kicks that take away mana, which is just about the most devastating thing you can have against a warlord. Smart monks will obviously do much better versus stone berserker by using crane stance, as well as their healing skill as frequently as they can. The monk class is very versatile - your problem is probably at the other end of the mouse. If you think a stone berserker warlord is so great, go create one.

http://abandonedrealms.com/strategy/stages.php

[TheOneAndOnly]

My two cents:

Firstly good move, I believe this will take the Cabal back to where it should be: full of capable evil bad asses. Secondly AcidAngel, if you are playing a shaman what the heck are you complaining about? You are playing one of the most self sufficient classes. The class is capable in pk, equipment gain and ability to stay alive. Shamans basically all out own when played properly. I would understand more if you were the warrior class who has been officialy deflated as far as Cabal warfare goes. All this change means is that you have to work for it a little more. Some key points that have been over looked on your part are:

1) The mud is balanced- with cabal skills included. All classes should be capable of PK at 50 with the resources available from mobs and equipment. The only difference is that you may have to remove that cursed weapon in order to switch to weaknesses, basically to use your brain instead of shredding them outright with haste.

2) The world is vast, plenty of areas to run to. In your case AcidAngel I believe you have an affinity for wording, so you should be okay as far as this goes, just keep hiding in front of your cabal guardian while you are cursed and word and quit when you are able. For the rest, take the fight from the Cabal and use your heads to outwit your opponents. I am certain that a player would rather fight you alone rather than have to battle your cabal guardian as well. If it is a one on one you shouldn't be using your guardian as a crutch anyways. Some key factors to know here are mobs that don't see invis that are aggressive, recall traps for those of you that have curse, and the uses and locations of all the potions within the game. Again brains over brawn.

3) Perhaps the most important point is that Legion as defined in the helpfile is a cabal based on power. If one of your cabal mates proves unable to be self sufficient it should be a good thing for you. They are weak you are not (in theory). So in essence this should be a good thing for you and not a bad one. So what you can't sanc that ranger, let him die, more gold for you. His death will only make you look better when you step up and finish what he couldn't.

One of my most memorable characters was in Legion when Darkhan had command. I was scared to die, he specifically told all his Legionnaires that if you died he would in turn slay you for your weakness. I got scrolled tripped to death and could care less about my eq or the humiliation I was more afraid of what Darkhan was going to do. That is how it should be, good change.

[AcidAngel]

I'm clearly not complaining for myself, theoneandonly. As I stated in my first post, I know my shaman stands to lose the very least. I stuck my chin out for what I still believe to be correct. All the melee legions just got dicked over and I can voice my opinion about that regardless of the fact I play a shaman. All the non legions out there can cheer all you want, you should be cheering. I just don't think imms should weaken one good cabal because the others cannot hang. It is a very reactionary 'solution' to weaken something just because it works. Figure out how to get more players in the playerbase instead, and you will have skilled players in the three cabals with overpowerd cabal skills. Your main problem in not having skilled players to fill those slots is low numbers overall. Those low numbers are NOT because legions spell each other up. I stand by that regardless of how many heralds or knights post opposing views.

[Sebryn]

Regardless of how the intent of my comments has been misinterpreted, I'm not saying that the changes should've happened, or that the players in Legion are too weak to handle their business with the changes, or anything else negative toward the current Legion characters.

What I was trying to get across was that I feel that you guys should view this as a chance to make yourselves more memorable, more feared, more skilled players, by playing through the difficulties and tangled web of rules that you're having to dance through. "Look, I just pwned you without any outside help and I'll do it again" just seems more prestigious than "Look, with haste/sanc/heals from my cabalmates I finally just killed you."

For those melee-type Legions (warriors, monks, etc.), I do think that they've got a tough road ahead of them, no question. But like Dav said, there are other ways (weapon vulns, monk stances, equipment, etc.) that can help make things a bit more even for those guys. It's still gonna be a bitch trying to get back up off a death and face another deathmark (w/no equipment, etc.) against a rared up Warlord with forms, etc., but you guys should view this as an opportunity to raise your own skill levels.

I don't really have a place to talk since I've never had a Legion or Warlord, but I'm just offering my opinions. Instead of viewing this as an insurmountable adversity and a negative change to Legion, look at it as a way to gain MORE respect by rising above the difficulty and still coming out on top. Don't go in expecting to be head-to-head against a Warlord and pk them in five minutes; it's gonna be tough, but you guys should be capable enough to handle it if you plan ahead and think about it.

I'm sure it's changed a few times by now, but the last line of an old version of the Legion's rules used to be something like:

[TheOneAndOnly]

If you are not complaining for yourself then be quiet because you are the only one griping. The "reactionary solution?" All solutions are "reactionary" or there would be no need for the solution to begin with. You don't fix non-existant problems. I agree the player base is low, actions such as this one are not so much meant to make it easier I believe it fits the image of what Legion should be in the minds of the Immortals. I do not mean this so much at you directly but typically players only see the short term problems, not the long term benefits. The players like me and you tend to like things the way they are and would prefer them not change but the Immortals have the best interest of the MUD in mind and whether we like them or not changes nothing. The new cabal system will work, if the players in Legion are unable to cope then they will not be in Legion for long and a new wave of players will come to fill their spots. There will always be players to join the Cabals, the requirements may have to change or the cabals themselves but the positions will be filled because people are competetive and enjoy the challenge. AcidAngel with all the respect I can give someone who complains, because I personally despise the trait, let it go. The changes will be allowed to continue until it poses a problem, for all we know it may work. The Immortals have shown sound judgement in the past so show a bit of faith (not to mention it is their cash that keeps this ship afloat). Just let it go. C'est la vie.

[Hrash]

Wow this post is pretty amusing. Almost makes me want to play a legion.
Here's my input.
1) Legions get illusionists. Knights don't. Sure there are neutral and goodie illusionists that MIGHT haste the Knights, but with Legions it's a sure thing.
2) Army? Bullshit. If you can't hold your own in the Legions without help against people like Eleanor or Resatimm (if he played goods), than you don't deserve to be in the Legions. As people have said, Legions are the cream of the crop. Getting inducted in the low 30s when you beat the snot out of newbies doesn't mean your the cream of the crop. You need to earn your spot in the Legions when you can play against FIFTIES. It might be a good idea for Legions to get tested once again when they reach their pinnacles (Dav, Res, anyone?)
3) Drow shamans might be the strongest all round class, but it really depends on the player. If code plays them, then yes, it's a bitch to kill. If I play them, then a newbie can probably cut off my dick and use it as a dill pickle.
4) Anyone here forgot that this is a RP/PK mud? I can't believe someone said "What's the point of cabal chat?" That's pretty pathetic.

[Phostan]

Mmm. First off, AcidAngel is just fighting for the right for Legion to be allowed to gangbang or get spellups. I think if anyone feels passionately enough about something, they should speak up. Personally, I hate Legion and yet I still say that Legion was a more intimidating cabal when they traveled in packs, and that added a bit to the exhiliration of having to run arround trying to summon them and seperate them so I could smack them down one on one, while worrying about the others catching up and jumping me in a pack instead of just having to fight one of them. In a game mechanics sense, it might be better this way, because, admittedly, the smaller playerbase just can't absorb the impact of gangbangs and the implications of someone getting spelled up and killing people with an obvious non-class/race advantage. But on a purely in-character basis, It makes no sense at all, because the name Legion implies something other then one-man killing machines, it, like Knights, implies groups of people who working together are supreme killing machines. Maybe what we really need to do here is change the name Legion to something to represent the new distinct one-man army creed. On a personal suggestion note, I think it'd be more interesting if Legion were encouraged to attack the same guy at once, but without grouping or spelling each other up. Like mission assignments. "I want this person dead, whoever brings me their head gets a promotion" and as such they'd be encouraged not to help the other guy, because then that guy would get the promotion if he got the kill. It'd be like the Zhents from Forgotten Realms. Manshoon is head honcho, and he orders all his underlings to take care of business who in turn grab some lackeys on the side and they go try to kill the target while trying to thwart their competitions plans at killing the target. I want to see Legion actively killing each other all the time. Oh, LegionA thinks, KnightA is almost dead, but so is LegionB, well...I'll just finish off both of them with a fireball, and thus LegionA wipes out the competition and the target. I am vaguely aware of some sort of duel for when one guy wants the leadership position and someone else already has it or whatever....but in a power struggle, do you announce your intentions? The dumb guys do, and they die. The smart ones throw their support behind their lead and finish him off after a battle where they're grieviously wounded. Eg. Starscream throwing Megatron off the Decepticon shuttle after Megatron is too weak to resist. That's the stuff I like to see! Anyways, thats my two cents. Oh, and I'm going to laugh at Keitorn because he was left out of the horsemen comment, guy can never get a drop of infamy.

[Burzuk]

Well, this thread sure filled up quickly.

I like hearing the strongly-held opinions expressed by both sides on this issue. Passion is good--apathy is a slow death. To quote one of Eliot's most famous lines, the world ends not with a bang but a whimper. There's no whimpering going on here.

I get an interesting assortment of notes, PM's, and the occasional chatty mortal (usually newer ones it seems) who are lucky/unlucky enough to run into me live on the mud. The number one complaints I hear about cabals isn't cabal skills or imbalances (despite what you may think of Justices being the flavor-of-the-month to crap on). Rather, it's the belief of these players that cabals exist on AR to further the inevitable cronyism that has developed from AR being such a long-running mud. It's hard for me to dispel that myth and assure them that no, you don't have to have a ton of OOC buddies to get into cabals or even to survive at 50. But when they see OOC buddies using cabals as an excuse to run around and gangbang those that are less socially-connected, it's hard me to say anything to encourage them to stick things through with AR.

I am not pointing any fingers at any current Legionnaires for this. Scapegoating solves nothing, and I'm not accusing anyone of anything. And I know perfectly well that not all IC gangbangs are OOC arranged, etc. But "perception is reality" is taken these days not as a mere philosophical notion but as an axiomatic truth. When people see someone tagging along in a fight they're not supposed to join in and providing sancs, hastes, etc, the assumption has been (and will continue to be) that this is an OOC assistance being condoned by our cabal system (since IC they were forbidden to do so). We aim to aggressively nip this problem in the bud--I'd rather err on the side of appearing to overcorrect on this issue rather than appearing to condone these things. I do not want our cabals to look like simply avenues for gangbangs.

I've always maintained that gangbangs are neither bad nor wrong, in and of themselves. However, I don't want our cabals to exist simply to provide certain players with numerical superiority in fights over others. That's not what it's for--cabals exist primarily to provide RP catalyst and to spur conflicts. Strategic advantages from joining cabals (due to cabal skills and cabal members as allies) are considered fringe benefits, and not the cause itself. I keep repeating the fact that my best (and favorite) characters have all been uncaballed--not because I dislike cabals, but rather that being uncaballed IMO gives one a better chance at standing out from the pack. I don't mind people joining cabals for protection, but regardless of why people choose to join cabals, the tactical advantages of belonging to a cabal are not its main purpose in my book, and I will not be making cabals more "gangbang friendly". Rather, things will be going in the opposite direction.

I do know that right now, the various rules for gangbangs and OOC assistance are rather strict. That's mostly because inside my skull, the monkeys working overtime with juggling bananas to come up with a good permanent solution is running short on peanuts to sustain them, and my attention is too divided right now to keep their supply going consistently. So I consider the most recent Legion edicts a subset of this particular gangbanging issue, one needing a more permanent solution. I'll need to make some big decisions in the near future as to how to change to code to discourage certain types of OOC gangbangs while preserving the flavor of group fighting that I'd like to see in AR.

One last note: I've mentioned that I'm axing certain cabal(s) to make room for at least one new one. My decision still hasn't been finalized yet. But Legions is running poorly in this race--and thus, the conduct of every current Legionnaire has some bearing on the continued existence of this cabal, now and in the future. In my mind's monkey equation, Justice is a dangerous cabal to keep because of the wide possibility of player abuse through poorly-enforced laws, and yet provides an invaluable service to the rest of the mud. In contrast, Heralds are almost wholly benign from an abuse standpoint (barring certain issues with the repute skill) and yet have little direct impact on the PKing atmosphere of the mud. Legions are the worst of both worlds--they can (with the wrong members) easily foster an atmosphere of condoned OOC/gangbang abuse, and yet even with the best of players Legions will still collectively add little to the mud that these players couldn't provide independently, without the Legion cabal tag and cabal powers. What Davairus is doing in pushing Legions toward becoming a training camp for "model badasses" isn't perfect and hasn't been without missteps, but to my eyes it's the best shot so far for making Legions viable. Remember, he has invested more of himself into Legions than I have, and thus he's on your side on this matter. You can help him reform Legions, or you can let things go continue on its previous course and let Legions fall to my axe. It's your choice. Remeber, we're all watching what you do in the name of Legions. I hope it doesn't come down to "how much gameplay advantage can I squeeze out of this cabal", because that's exactly the attitude that will end Legions in a heartbeat. It's the ol' being a part of the problem vs. being a part of the solution debacle.

And now, you're free to resume tearing at each other's throats in three, two, one...

[Bigbeans]

I dont exactly agree with all of the changes but I just chalk it up as my outlook on the cabal is different from someone elses..in this case the most important the immortals. I would like to start off with I wont justify the 'Hey there are three of us and one of him so lets go bang him' idea. However if that one person is around has 1. Attacked the halls anytime prior. 2. Tried to gang bang another legion prior or 3. Just ist a MAJOR pain in the ass. they generally deserve whats coming to them. I love to fight alone, would much rather do it thats not the problem. Its just the fact of placing these stipulations on a cabal which is driven by power. In my eyes as a legion I would rather have people hate me than respect me. I would rather have people spit on me than to greet me with open arms. I dont want to be held back by any false honor or anything that can make me weaker, I always said being a good playing is using everything to your advantage. That goes for fighting alone using an array of potions, scrolls, traps, whatever have you, to using the aid of another. It's tough to place the aid when warranted idea within legion because it can get abused I understand that fully. I dont know, I just view legion as the dirty men for the immortal that backs them. If they were a good legion in my eyes they would be mindless drones following the orders of their Lord not searching for any honor, respect and such. They would want to torment the lands under any means needed to get the job done in order to bring shrines and sacrifices to their lords wishes. With that said thats why I dont fuddle about it on my character I dont bother to complain or argue his word (I have once not at him directly but another legion all the while stating that "He is our Lord and we should do as he says yada yada" deal. In the game Davairus has been pretty generous by allowing people to voice their opinions directly over the cabal chat with no backlash towards them. Although you may not agree you made a commitment to that cabal and you have to take the ups and downs, I am surprised at how well he took the comments not as an immortal trying to do the game good but as the legion immortal who shouldn't be talked back to.

[AcidAngel]

I guess people really don't give a shit anymore. Maybe I shouldn't care either. Not really fair to the character I spent time on but damn if we're going to let it all go to hell maybe I should just let it go. Imms are the spiders that wrap the playerbase up tight in their web of rules and clarifications. It isn't dead yet, but they will keep feeding on it until they suck it dry. I have watched the playerbase trickle down over the years, as everybody else has. I really thought maybe if I fight for it, people will rally and this rule for every possible situation bullshit would cease and the mud would become something functional. Yeah my drow shaman could stick around in the ranks of legion, and maybe I'll let her have her run but fuck a gleam in her eye because it is a losing battle not for her but for the mud. Fuck me running, I used to wonder why stryth left. He poured so much of himself into this mud, and I guess he saw it coming a long time ago. I am so fucking mad for wasting my time. It really pisses me off that I give a damn. I wish I didn't, then maybe I could be blindly hearded towards the cliff's edge like everybody else. Passion my ass Burzuk. These people are ready to rally around anything that helps their character because that is as far as they can see. Blind imms, blind followers. Wake the fuck up and realize who you are listening to to make the changes, those people screaming "Help other players pk me" don't give a flying fuck what you have to do to make them stop because they can only see the short term result of it helping them. Keep listening to those few whiney bitches, they are the ones who will stay and you will spend the next couple years ammending the rules to keep them happy. And when the rules finally disallow any form of fun, those boring fucking people can sit with you imms in north square and emote all day. Congratulations, you've seen the future!

[Davairus]

I remind you, if you didn't already know, that you're messing with the second rule of Legion. However, the first (and most important, its why its the first) rule is "Follow chain of command". It means you can gangbang a guy if you got permission first from the Legion immortal. No other cabal has this much elasticity with its cabal guidelines. You call this a tight web of rules, sucking you dry? I wonder if you'd care to use me ordering a Legion to slay some half-naked thief to claim a frozen asparagus as decor for a garden I was designing as an example. I'm probably seeming really random sometimes, but the underlying reason there was I wished to see somebody weak get snuffed out by an evil bastard for a decent reason i.e. to gain favour from his twisted immortal. I now have a frozen asparagus looking pretty in my immortal room by the way, along with a bunch of other random stuff. Sometime I'll probably force Meriando to eat it all. Rectally.

Well, this number one rule also allows mortals a piece of the pie, so unfortunately I don't get to have all the fun. It means you can be ordered to gangbang by your superiors, and you won't have a say in the matter, but the trade-off for that is the guy who sanctioned the order will have to accept full responsibility/blame for the whole event. You'd then be pulled up before the immortal, and made to give your reasons, much like I do with the more dubious of my game changes, for you. And I am now wondering if I need to post a bunch of clarifications in that rule as well, so you get the idea.

From help cabal:
"Cabals might not be for everyone; there are rules and politics involved"

Think you could try to take this in while we're on the subject?

[Louis]

The purpose of AR is to flip out and kill people.

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/reviews/robboard.cgi?action=display&num=3936

[Hrash]

As for Burzuk's post..
I'm really curious to see what each cabal contributes to AR. Legions apparently have the old cliche 'rule the world' theme. I don't know about anyone else, but that has to be one of the most mundane theme ever. Maybe if they have an actual goal..like bring the world of the living to the world of the dead or something similar. Something that condones killing everyone.
Knights are there to stop the Legions. I guess that's kind of a decent theme, but even so, there purpose isn't really clear.
Justice? Protect the law? Bah. No comment.
Warlords...once again no comment. Just the thought of a bunch of warriors banding together to act gay..no comment.
Herald seems to be the only one with a true, single, WORTHY, purpose of all the cabals. I think it's best if almost all the cabals are revamped so that they actually have some good purpose.

[Louis]

i don't think there's anything wrong with legions trying to rule the world. what mud is complete without a feared powerhouse evil cabal?

unless there is a better idea.. hmmm