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Lorne
Immortal
 
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 456
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 Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Large Scale Warfare. |
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Green Elephant
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Seems to me bows would mess up a halfling warrior, but I'm sure they weren't created for that purpose only... |
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Enskel
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bows are part of the plan to make two-handed weapons useful, and they're the only part of that plan that applies to all classes. |
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divsky
Emissary
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| .. if only bows were available to all classes. |
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LABruinCub
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm, based on what bows do, which is take away dodge, it would affect high dex classes with dodge the most, namely halflings, elves, drows, and avians. Halflings are way too buff anyways, especially halfling warriors, there's almost no way to hit them. Also made to address halfling thieves that own everyone, even when they miss blackjack, they dodge like crazy and rarely get bashed or trip, leading to continual annoyance without retaliation. I can think of many situations in which thieves own warriors because they can evade easily and have hide. So halfling warriors and thieves are the main reason why bows were introduced, especially with counterbalance, instead of allowing a thief to dual wield and parry arrows which leads to a thief outdamaging a bow wielder (6 attacks vs. 3), a thief would have to give up a secondary to dodge and balance the damage output giving the bow user a chance to actually win the fight.
Another guess would be that bows were made to balance dual wielding warriors who would rock thieves or ninjas, like say a dual wielding two crazy weapons and simply outdamaging them. Now you can take away one defense and hit them more. This is probably my weaker guess, as a dual wielder still destroys a bow user in general. |
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saracelrin
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think this has anything to do with dodge .only fighting classes get it.i think its to get around mages and the blur,haste,dispacement,etc. defenses.why use a bow against another warrior when you lose dual parry. |
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Mendek
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 472
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| You guys are thinking thieves and ninja are meant to stand toe to toe with warriors. They'r e not. |
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Burzuk
Implementor
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LABruinCub wrote: |
| Another guess would be that bows were made to balance dual wielding warriors who would rock thieves or ninjas, like say a dual wielding two crazy weapons and simply outdamaging them. Now you can take away one defense and hit them more. This is probably my weaker guess, as a dual wielder still destroys a bow user in general. |
Well something tells me that this is as close to a correct answer as I'm going to get. I do think I've still lost the bet to Eldorian though, as I've disqualifed myself by coaching many players on bow use over the last few days, as well as my explicitly saying this in another thread:
| Burzuk wrote: |
| Generally speaking, dual wield right used to be a no-brainer compared to two-handed weapons or wearing a shield. As part of our "brains over brawn" ethos here on AR, however, we’re moving toward a more balanced model where all of these different fighting styles (dual wield, single weapon, and weapon/shield) are more competitive with each other, instead of always simply grabbing the two biggest weapons you can find. So first and foremost, dual wield needed to be brought down from its dominant position. |
Bows are good for many things, anti-dex being one of them. However, the one thing that they excel at is simple: to demolish people who dual wield. Notice that a bows cannot be:
a) dodged (except with counterbalance or defensive empowerment, neither of which can be used with dual wield);
b) parried with primary weapon (one-handed parry);
c) parried with offhand weapon (one-handed parry);
d) riposted (not in helpfile, but easy to confirm experimentally).
This leaves a dual wielder with exactly zero defenses against someone with bows. Considering that a bow wielder still has dodge and parry (if they have point blank) as well as improved enhanced damage and an additional point blank attack to help offset his opponent's dual wield attacks, bow wielders should be able to trounce dual wielders handily, assuming similar equipment levels.
Of course, there's nothing preventing your opponent from switching to a shield against your bow. But likewise, there's nothing preventing you from switching to dual wielding against a shield in that case to take advantage of offhand attacks and dual parry (if applicable), right?
So that's how to use bows, in a nutshell. Use it or don't use it, it's up to you. |
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divsky
Emissary
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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http://abandonedrealms.com/realms/classes/images/ninja.jpg
So, ah, why don't ninjas get bows? |
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Burzuk
Implementor
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Because we're working on new object throws and martial arts skills for them instead (to better distinguish them from thieves). Unlike almost all the other classes, they've also retained their offhand enhanced bonus, with the goal being to eventually establishing them as being the indisputably strongest rogue class in open combat, especially when it comes to dual wield. In other words, thieves will need bows to counter ninjas, but not vice versa.
Also, anyone who has played the Thief series of games, especially the original ones from Looking Glass Studios (RIP), knows that thieves are way better suited than ninjas when it comes to bows and arrows. Obviously. |
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Nuonorp
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:04 am Post subject: Re: Wow! My two cents... |
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| Nuonorp wrote: |
| Well, first thing I did after getting on AR today was to go kill a ranger, and I noticed a few things. From a technical point of view, the help quiver feature has not yet been implemented. From a gamer's point of view, this REALLY kills those people who dual wield: I found a mob with a bow, and he absolutely slaughtered my character. You can now find me cowering behind the largest shield I can find. |
Can somebody tell me why that wasn't closer to the right answer, about how bows are made to balance weapons and demolish dual wielders? The entire thing with me being slaughtered, mentioning dual wielding, cowering behind the largest shield I can find? If anybody agrees, I'd like some recognition for that, page 1 of this thread, too!  |
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Valerion
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 50
Location: Sicily
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Hah, no recognition for you. Go choke yourself on that shield. |
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Valerion
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 50
Location: Sicily
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Hah, no recognition for you. Go choke yourself on that shield. |
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Baer
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 618
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Don't you just love trying to be a smart-ass, then posting it twice? Yeah. I thought so. |
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Brains
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| If he wasn't using Internet Explorer, he wouldn't have that problem... |
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Angelic Mortal
Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Valerion...If it was funny or even slightly amusing, I wouldn't mind.. but that just wasn't funny.
on a more topic based comment, bows rock... seen a few very high averaged bows floating around.. thumbs up for implementing them :p |
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Enskel
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| divsky wrote: |
| .. if only bows were available to all classes. |
That was not my point. Parry is available to all classes, so all classes have motivation to choose two-handed weapons. |
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Burzuk
Implementor
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Nuonorp wrote: |
Well, first thing I did after getting on AR today was to go kill a ranger, and I noticed a few things. [...] From a gamer's point of view, this REALLY kills those people who dual wield: I found a mob with a bow, and he absolutely slaughtered my character. You can now find me cowering behind the largest shield I can find.
[...]
Can somebody tell me why that wasn't closer to the right answer, about how bows are made to balance weapons and demolish dual wielders? The entire thing with me being slaughtered, mentioning dual wielding, cowering behind the largest shield I can find? If anybody agrees, I'd like some recognition for that, page 1 of this thread, too! |
Because it didn't actually happen that way. You made a similar post about this on another thread, and someone pointed out:
| Hilemal wrote: |
| Might have changed since I looked, but the rangers in emerald don't have arrows. Therefore they aren't shooting anything, just hitting you with their bow, yes? No shield needed, right? |
In fact, even if the rangers had arrows, it wouldn't have mattered, since as I responded in that thread:
| Burzuk wrote: |
| By the way, during fights mobs use bows like any other normal weapon (they don't require arrows and their attacks treat defenses normally), while they likewise defend against bows as if they were any other weapon. The custom bows and arrows bonuses/penalties only affect player vs player combat. |
So what you were pointing out was actually a placebo effect, constructed entirely in your mind. LABruinCub's answer was closer IMO because he actually made an attempt to break down how it affected different defenses and weapon-wielding styles, even if his analysis and final conclusion was incorrect.
There's no objective way to say with authority who was "closer", so if you felt your answer was closer to the mark even though you were trying to make something out of nothing, then more power to you. You did correctly mention the "bows beat dual wield" idea; however, your evidence didn't support your claim, nor did you attempt to give an adequate explanation for your answer.
Nothing personal, but this is what happens when you get someone who used to grade a lot of essays to judge something like this. |
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Insom
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 294
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| I knew it, Burzuk was a GSI. |
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Brains
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Enskel wrote: |
| Parry is available to all classes, so all classes have motivation to choose two-handed weapons. |
Sweet!
So... where's my two-handed dagger?
Or, seriously, a two-handed mace usable by any class/race/align combo: for invokers, primarily. There may well be one already, but I can't ever remember running across one. On the other hand, if there *isn't* one, unlucky invokers of that specific class/race/align may want to kiss their collective ass goodbye.
-edit
After searching around on a few AR fansites (and their lists of item IDs), I found one suitable candidate:
a short mace
Object 'short mace' is type weapon, material metal.
Extra flags: none.
Weight is 7, value is 135, level is 25.
Weapon type is mace/club.
Damage is 4d6 (average 14).
Two-handed weapon.
Mob: An old female gnome
Area: Unsiliel Wood
I don't ever remember seeing it, and even if I had, I probably wouldn't have even recorded it, thinking it a craptastic specimen. Then again, as invokers are going to be the (only?) ones needing this weapon, at least they can eventually enchant it. |
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