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Entrapment
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Should the justice be able to flag you when they're invisible?
It's awful! It's like the Gestapo!
55%
 55%  [ 20 ]
It's cool! It's like the Gestapo!
44%
 44%  [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 36

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Mr Carbohydrate



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:09 pm    Post subject: Entrapment

Ok, so calling it entrapment might be a bit excessive...
what does everyone think about the new(ish) laws that let justices flag you when they're invisible?
To be radical, i'm even going to leave out the pointless option! (having just informed Boomslang's poll that I wasn't there at the time and so have no opinion, which I'm sure you all find fascinating)
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saracelrin



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:24 pm    Post subject:

No offense to you, but if you break the law it doesn't matter if they are invis or not.Most classes can use magic one way or another so where's the problem?Next you'll be saying its unfair some imms are invis to all except other imms.
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b00mslang



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:27 pm    Post subject:

The real question is whether justices can flag you just because your mercenary was inside someone else's guildhall.
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Seryie



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 574
Location: Australia, Adelaide

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:31 pm    Post subject:

Well, they can't.... Someone else could've killed the guardian and you might've strolled in there.
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saracelrin



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:37 pm    Post subject:

And you would walk into another guild after someone else has killed the guardian because...............?
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Mr Carbohydrate



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:37 pm    Post subject:

I'm not talking about fair or unfair, just what makes the game more fun. I liked it better when the law was different, it's as simple as that.
I think that, for classes without detect invis, it adds another, unnessesery menial task, ie. going to get a clear potion every time you want to break the law. Either that or leaving it up to luck as to whether there is a justice around. Now in my opinion those are two things that you want to REMOVE from any game: Luck and boring mundane crap. There's already enough of that with training.
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Vertas



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 1168
Location: Ewa Beach, HI

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject:

b00mslang wrote:
The real question is whether justices can flag you just because your mercenary was inside someone else's guildhall.

if they have a reason to, then yes there is always the option of mercenary gets attacked and flees in there. But yeah once got lucky, saw the merc in there, placed the flag he fled into the guardian, proof enough heh.
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b00mslang



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject:

Actually what happened was a certain Justice flagged me after knowing nothing but that my merc was in the ranger guild, attacked me, and I fled into the ranger guild guardian, which then proved my guilt, but then, he didn't do it in a lawful way.
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Seryie



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 574
Location: Australia, Adelaide

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:32 am    Post subject:

saracelrin : You don't need a reason, unless they see it they can't do shizzle.

Justice is kind of.... half-baked in many of their rules, way too many holes, I might just call them swiss cheese from now on.
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saracelrin



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:51 am    Post subject:

Law 1 states guardians are protected by the law therefore so is the guild grounds.To be in another guild with a pet alone if hardly anyone else is in town and to be the only one there implies atleast complicity with a crime(killing guild guardian) to thieve from a coffer.so by entering the guild which wasn't his own and not being a justice he there by leaves himself open to being wanted for unlawful entry.

not that this means alot to me,i always play classes with detects.
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Sebryn



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 1185

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:13 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Now in my opinion those are two things that you want to REMOVE from any game: Luck and boring mundane crap

If you remove luck, all you'll HAVE is boring, mundane crap. If everything in the game is a 'sure thing,' it's pointless and no fun. Think about any video game you've played into oblivion (from Super Mario Bros. to Halo 2). Once you've played it and learned everything to the point of routine, it's no longer any fun to play. The unknown possibility that you might get your ass handed to you is what makes games like that fun.

Quote:
Law 1 states guardians are protected by the law therefore so is the guild grounds.To be in another guild with a pet alone if hardly anyone else is in town and to be the only one there implies atleast complicity with a crime(killing guild guardian) to thieve from a coffer.so by entering the guild which wasn't his own and not being a justice he there by leaves himself open to being wanted for unlawful entry.

Law 1 says that attacks on guild guardians are illegal. It doesn't say that sitting in someone else's guild instantly makes you a criminal. And as for looting coffers... they don't belong to anybody specifically. Yes, they're 'supposed' to be for the members of that class, but once something's in a coffer there's no official owner, thus you can't be considered "stealing" if you take something from them.

As for the question in question (?), I don't know what my opinion on invis Justices is. Didn't one of the recent Justices (the Ugu- one) get booted for attempting to take bribes? Invis Justices kinda seems like it might be up that same "shady Justice" alley. Maybe entrapment is the right word for it after all.

But then again, the laws are laws anyway, and if you break a law it doesn't matter if the Justice sees it or not, right? You still broke it. I guess in that sense you've gotta do what Mr. Carbohydrate said: get a clear potion/three-eyed root or something, or rely on luck.
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Resatimm
Takes the Cake


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 980

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:52 am    Post subject:

ahahahaa bOOmslang, i removed that flag. then i put it back on cause the guild guard attacked you
ahahaha


pwned


It was an honest mistake from a new justice, get over it. I think its hilarious what the solution was though. Made me laugh.
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b00mslang



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:11 pm    Post subject:

Someone could have attacked me at the guild entrance, and when I fled, the merc fled into the guild.


And res, please, when writing my name, use zero's instead of O's. O's make my name look fat, and you don't want to see what a fat illithid looks like.
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Lydana
Immortal


Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 45
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject:

I don't know if the policy has changed or not, but back in the day Justices couldn't flag unless they were fully visible... or they 'could' but they aren't supposed to. It was in the Justice code, but that was probably about 2 years ago, so it might have changed.
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b00mslang



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:35 pm    Post subject:

It did change.
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perpetual noob



Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 52
Location: MN

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject:

i got entrapped today by an invisible justice and so for no other reason than that i think its lame...but i thought it was funny that i talked said justice into not chasing me because i'd turn myself in later. Now, granted he eventually came after me, but it was a pretty half-assed effort, i must say. I did eventuallly turn myself in, though, because hey, i'm a man of my word
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saracelrin



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:46 pm    Post subject:

Sebryn read my post again.I said complicity with a crime.If you came home and found your next door nieghbors door open and some person you know doesn't belong there is inside what would you think?You would suspect them right off of breaking in.Same applies here.And the guild guardian protects the guild from intrusion from people not from that guild.So the rest of the guild is ok to stand in as long as you don't kill the guardian?We all know that you can't flee into a guild but sometimes pets do.
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Sebryn



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 1185

PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject:

What's to stop you from thinking that maybe the person in the house isn't looking for the "real" burglar? Twisted Evil

Joking.
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Enskel



Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject:

saracelrin wrote:
No offense to you, but if you break the law it doesn't matter if they are invis or not.Most classes can use magic one way or another so where's the problem?Next you'll be saying its unfair some imms are invis to all except other imms.


That's different. Breaking the rules is something nobody's supposed to do, whether an imm is watching or not. Breaking laws is part of the game -- "mortal affairs." Invisible justice is totally unfair.

FWIW My only active character has detect invis up all the time and has never been flagged, so my opinion is not sour grapes.
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saracelrin



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:10 pm    Post subject:

strategy section---->justice FAQ

2) Protected areas
------------------

The laws are enforced in the three recall point towns. JUSTICES must be visible when they flag, but JUSTICES do not have to stay visible in town if they are endangered in it. (I.E. they can go invisible or hide if it is to defend themself from pk.) You can check if an area is protected by using the command 'where law'.

enough said?
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