From "the new knights" - Justices overpowered

[Ar_History]

If monks and illusionists cannot be in Knights classes such as necromancers and dark-knights have no business with Justice. Nor any evil classes should be defending some kind of law for a place of safehaven.

[Rozzy]

He has a point.

[sweet_canadian_mullet]

My thoughts with justices and heralds are as follows.


Justice. Too many + crap players + way too powerfull cabal = a cabal that every hates that you cant kill with having WAYY to big of a penalty with. Justices need to be toned down some just with their penalty for breaking the law. The justice system is based on the cop world of today. You break the law...you are punished. You take a shite, you get fined. You attack someone you get killed, exp plus, one death closer to dead forever, equipments missing. HOW FREAKING GAY. Wayy too powerfull especialy when all justices are are a bunch of hoarders. Sasarai took three things yesterday that I MOST needed...And she/he least needed. Had no reason to take them. I think that justices should be able to take things they want/need for non selling purposes. If you get something better later...god its yours...no arguing. But if you have no need and are just going to sell it...Dont take it. With the exp penalty I think it should be toned down because you get a 5-12 thousand +tnl which creates trash chars and makes people start over... in other words making the higher level's harder to reach and be able to see over your HUGE hill of tnl.


Heralds. Heralds are a bystander. A writer of wars and battles. They have no purpose in fights, unless it is rp'd based. Hey he didnt pay for my drink like he said he was going to...And this should have actualy happened in an rp meeting. They have NO place in fights. And they have no buisness choosing sides. They need to be neutral. And neutral only. But yeah...I cant concentrate my lil bro is goin off about somethin. I think I am done thoh.

[b00mslang]

Yeah I completely agree with mullet, Justices are way too overpowered. I think that maybe if you kill the justice that wanted you, you should no longer be wanted. Though it might not make sense, it would make it a lot more fair.

Furthermore, there are just way too many justices these days. A few days earlier three legions fought SIX justices all with dups and guards(we(legion) killed three and lost no one), while still being wanted. If you just take this incident, it obviously shows that Justices are full of crap players that can't fight without a guard a shitloads of backup. (remember yesterday, Sasarai?, high inquisitor gets beatup by lowly legion without shadow?)

Also, being wanted right now is like having a contract being placed on your head. Justices ARE NOT ASSASSINS. Being wanted should not mean that you will die, which is pretty much the case unless you're an ill/psi/healer/shaman, and especially since high leveled justices can easily kill lowbies under them.

And then, if you do get killed by a justice, if you've been wanted only like 3 times before, you get called a common criminal and get nothing returned. What is this shit? For non-locating classes a good set of 50 eq can take weeks to get. I mean, if you look at justices, for anybody except the semi-elite to elite players, they'll never kill a justice alone(and forget killing them with red dragon at 50), which pretty much means that the justices would just be getting a lot of eq that they can't/don't want to use and/or sac it all.

[Eldorian]

Uh I don't know how this got turned into a rant about Justices.

But the Justice cabal is the ONLY cabal with a game function, namely, so that lawful/neutral/chaotic would make sense. All other cabals are more or less fluff. So Justices should always be powerful. Without them ethos would be meaningless, or more accurately, no one would be lawful because there would be no benefits (what's the point of following the law if there's no consequences to breaking them)?

As for the punishments, it's very simple -- don't get wanted. And before you say "I can do whatever I want", well, then, don't complain about the consequences.

[Davairus]

I split the other topic creating this new one.

$$

[Matrix]

You guys are missing the point. If a Justice kills you, you just got PKed. It's not some big special immortal power to call a special guard; they just use one of their skills to kick your ass.

If three Legions lost to six Justices without killing any of them, the Legions suck or at least one of the justices is good. It is not easy to kill a Legion when you're forbidden from entering his cabal ground. Also, a lot of Justices are easy to trick. Just tell one of them where you're all hiding, and they'll come to you. One of them will run faster than the others, and when he enters the area a gangbang will ensue. Or if they all group up, go to somewhere where you can summon one of them into a bad situation and a gangbang will ensue.

Jeez, Justice has been fine for years. It's been a LONG time since even a minor change was made to the cabal, try to think about why that is before you bitch about it being overpowered. Also, just because someone kicks your ass doesn't mean they are overpowered, it prolly just means you suck.

And why are you surprised a level 50 can kill your level 35 trash anyway? He's level 50 for Christ sake, you don't go pissing him off with your little shithead n00btrash and wonder why you get wasted.

[Flying Hampster of Doom]

About justice;
I have no problem with the current system inside of Seringale or any other town protected by law. What I do have a problem with is the general feeling of the immortals towards the law. A while ago when I had Eires running around we were told by an immortal that they would rather have Justices than any other cabal and that they were more important then any other cabal that was around at the time. That makes absolutely no god damn sense. Favortism is the first way to destroy a game and make it less fun. I think the situation had to do with the knights destroying the justices every time they got on to try and collect a warrant. I was told to stop killing justices who were trying to kill me... ... ... if someone is trying to kill me you are damn right I am going to try and lay down the smack. Open the proverbial can of whoop ass if you will.

The only other problem I see is the cabal protection they are alloted. I can see warranting someone in a protected town for attacking in said protected town. But if I am going to go after a justice and he is hiding inside his cabal in a 'NON' protected town or he is squatting in seringale not coming out because he is a puss, I am going to get a flag so that every mob with a 'guard' preffix or suffix in the game attacks me that is pretty gay. They shouldnt be allowed to want someone on the basis of attacking a cabal. They should not be given more protections then any other cabal in the game on the basis that they are a justice and we are not.

As for heralds, I agree with mullet for the most part, although history has been written by victors and losers, and some of them were what are considered 'evil' and some were considered 'good'. Heralds participating in combat is a good way to make this more of a 'pk/rp' mud as long as the herald has a good reason to be pk'ing.

[theobserver]

[b00mslang]

First of all, the 3 legions killed 3 out of 6 justices, not the other way round.

Second, the way justices can flag people is just insane. In the real world or any medieval world, when someone attacks someone else, unless the justice is like 50 yards or less away, he'll have no idea what's going on until later. Here, justices hear a shout, and immediately flags the perpetrator if he's anywhere in seringale. I think there should definately be some form of trying to figure out whether so and so did such a crime.

Yeah, and also what happens if a justice wants you without proof? Yesterday I killed a justice in a duel to the death, then looted. But no one saw me loot, since I autosneak, but the justice flags me anyway. I really don't think that's legal, but is there anything I can do about it? Can't really go rounding up 3 lawfuls to corroborate my case since it was in the arena and no one else saw me loot nor can prove that I didn't. Does the innocent until proven guilty policy present in justice's cabal conduct?

[Sebryn]

In that case it might be the fact that if you were the only one in the arena, it's pretty obvious that when you kill someone and are standing DIRECTLY over the corpse, you're gonna be the first and most likely one to loot it.

I would hope that most of the players playing Justices know their way around at least the towns well enough that the one you killed could've run back to his corpse pretty quickly. The fact that nobody saw you do it only exacerbates the situation, because even though Justices should remain objective in their personal affairs, I'm sure that the Justice in this case got upset with losing and losing his equipment.

Tough break.

[Louis]

rules and stuff for the arena are different from the ones in town.

[Sebryn]

[Rezakhan]

The problem with Justice now has nothing to do with the cabal powers/skills or purpose--as Matrix said, its been around for a long time with no changes.
My problem now is with the people who are playing Justices--the quality of the players has gone down quite a bit. Ive been wanted several times recently, and if there is only one 50 Justice on, they will run to their cabal or hide in guildhalls rather than try to track me down, even if Im in town. Likewise, before Sasarai ranked up, there would be times when I would be wanted with him and another level 50 Justice on, and Sasarai would come after me with his guard while the other Justice would avoid me.
The reason Justices have such great powers (guard call or the ability to flag for hitting their cabal) is because they are supposed to apprehend criminals, not run from them until there are enough Justices on to take him down.

[LABruinCub]

With Justices, yeah, you have nice powers and all, but your powers depend on the actions of someone else. Hmmm, I think it's pretty balanced. Look at Knights or Legions, it would suck if you could only mount your stallion or summon a charmie ONLY after someone else has attacked you first, you'd never have the element of surprise. For criminals, there really isn't an element of surprise, if you are flagged and you see a Justice in the realms, you are pretty much expecting the Justice and preparing for him. I don't see how Justices are overpowered when their skills don't affect you until you have committed a crime, if you are smart enough not to commit a crime in town, their cabal powers are practically useless against you. And RP wise, we are closely scrutinized, even more so than when I was a knight or a legion, even Nocq has been warned for certain actions. I don't believe it has anything to do with favoritism, but just the fact that our actions affect everyone in the realms, not just other people in pk or cabals.

[Flying Hampster of Doom]

Yes there is an element of surprise. I usually only ever get wanted when a justice just enters AR for the day. I here guards guards right after I attack and I am screwed in that respect. Secondly,

[Sebryn]

[Burzuk]

Are you disagreeing with the concept behind Justices, or simply disgruntled about what you perceive as the poor quality of players playing Justices and how they've been empowered to deal with criminals?

If it's the former, there is no reason why you can logically equate the importance of Justices with any bias in favor of them. Are you saying that because they're important, they're let off the hook when they screw up? They're important because if all the cabals were to be removed tomorrow, the lack of Justices would be the first cabal-related that anyone would whine about, period. But that doesn't mean we give them preferential treatment. Quite on the contrary, Justices have the worst punishments for being booted compared to other cabals, AND they get booted more easily than members of other cabals. More Justices get booted from their cabal than members from any other cabal, and sometimes even on their first offense. If you think a Justice is getting away with something he shouldn't be getting away with, name some names and cite some incidents instead of throwing accusations of favoritism around with no substantiation. I don't have time to play games with this.

If you have a problem with dealing with Justices, don't break the law then. They are the only cabal whose aggression is caused by your own actions: Knights will attack you if you're evil, Warlords can deathmark you even if you're unwilling to duel them, Assassins will hunt you down if someone else contracts you, and Legions will often attack you for simply existing. Compared to that, bringing the wrath of Justice down upon your head is a consequence of your own doing. Would you prefer if Justices attacked chaotics on principle, like Knights do with evils? Also, we have over a hundred areas and only four of them protected by Justices. Justices are one of the few checks we have against AR turning into an all-out brainless brawl, and only within those areas. And Justices aren't even foolproof, by design. They have to be present in the area to even flag, unless the victim can actually scrounge together some lawful witnesses (which has an abymally low success rate, compared to the frequency at which this is attempted). Would you prefer that they can hear your attacks in town from anywhere within Thera? If you've ever played a Justice (as many of the Imms have, myself included), you know that being tied to town-sitting often limits what you are free to do. Justices have a job to do. You don't. Whose fault is it when you get in their way?

Lastly, from a code perspective, stallions and shadows as charmies are definitely no slouch compared to guards, which are certainly far from being the deadliest cabal skill. Yilhet escaped from being ensnared from within Justice cabal while under attack from multiple special guards (under the old 10-tick ensnare), and Burzuk as a mortal managed to outrun 4 Justices despite being 10-tick ensnared on the stupid 5-room Seringale river back before when people couldn't climb out of it via the bridge. (I don't see how you guys can even have problems with special guards now that ensnare has been gimped quite a bit from being able to miss and from the duration being shortened, but that's just me.) Special guards hardly make Justices as powerful as you make them out to be, especially when you compare them against skills like stallion and Warlord forms. I had fun hunting Justices as a criminal, and the only time I've ever gotten apprehended was from getting cursed and summoned into a room with multiple people spamming close door and having my passdoor immediately dispelled. (You can't summon people into those rooms anymore.) Justices aren't invincible. I know I'm far from being the only person who has taken out many more Justices than they've ever done to me, and I don't see why you can't do the same as a criminal--especially if the current Justices suck as much as you say they do. Heck, they're obligated to attack you as a criminal--what more could you ask for if you're out for blood. Mow them all down and give 'em hell.

[Sebryn]

Eh, hopefully that wasn't directed at me... I was never against the idea of Justices as a whole. I completely understand their role within AR, I was just agreeing that if incidents like the one b00mslang depicted do in fact occur (which I'm nearly certain of, if only rarely), I don't believe it's fair that the Justices assume guilt with no actual evidence.

If they return to their corpse and see the victorious duelist changing equipment to what the Justice themself just lost, that should be a flag. However, if the Justice returns and never sees the lost equipment, how are they 100% certain that the victor of their duel is the one that took it?

That was my whole concern with Justices. They do their job fairly well, despite annoying the bejeezus out of a lot of people. Then there are the criminals that like 'playing with fire' by getting flagged and running rampant through town while being chased by three or four of them. That's entertaining, if nothing else.

[Rezakhan]

My point still remains the same, particularly as Burzuk says,
"they're obligated to attack you as a criminal".
You want specific examples, how about Sithius the other day deciding to go nuts and attack a bunch of Justices--Im waiting by Ofcol, and both Naugrim and Nocqarienz go running by back to their cabal, while he is still wanted. Of course, both of them emerge then when Sasarai and Nikola come around.
Or when I attack Naugrim outside of town, and he runs straight to his cabal to hide--for any cabal, this is considered bad, but normally I could just enter the cabal to follow them. However, if I do that with Justice, I immediately get flagged and when I eventually die, lose all my items.
We also have Sasarai constantly being invisible in town, even when no criminals are around, simply because I attack him outside of town and hes worried Ill pursue him in. Both Sasarai and Nahui have attacked me while still using their special guards--Nahui I didnt bother reporting because I think it was an honest mistake, Sasarai I didnt because he lost the battle anyway.
These are some examples I can come up with offhand--if its true Justices are scrutinized more than other cabals, then fine, I have nothing to complain about. I just feel that as they do get highly beefy skills(which I dont think can be disputed), they should have an obligation to go after criminals, even if they are worried about dying themselves. Im not saying walk into a wanted group of 4 or anything, but if there is one wanted person, they should not be off hiding until another Justice is around to help them.