From "the new knights" - Justices overpowered

[Burzuk]

File some complaints, both of the note type and the complaint type. Send up a pray when this happens on the off-chance that someone is available to look into it (ONE pray, do not spam). I know you're supposed to know all of this already--this is more public info for everyone else.

Funny that every time someone gets away with something, they immediately think that the Imms are playing favorites and protecting the other side when, in fact, the problem lies in observers not being pro-active enough to help fix the problem. We can't be everywhere at once, and it's easy to sit back and lob accusations.

Now if you hear me say, "well Justices have a tough job, I'll cut them some slack", then feel free to rip into me for favoritism. But Justices definitely do not get let off the hook in my book, and never have. And I resent any insinuation otherwise, that I might permit. let alone condone, any lax behavior from them. I certainly have more important things to do than personally babysit every player, and rarely attend to things unless I've been notified. I don't see why anyone would think that we choose not to discipilne Justices if they screw up, when in fact we do deal with these things when they're brought to our attention.

Lastly, Justices have no specific guidelines for what odds they're supposed to assume in combat. Therefore, whether they were dodging their duties or not is best judged by the cabal Imm, who can listen in on what's going on in CB to see what's causing the delay. Remember that there are always two sides to every story, and whether a Justice is upholding his duty or not is for the cabal leaders to judge, not criminals. Having said that, criminals can certainly present their side of the facts during disputes as well.

[LABruinCub]

Yeah, before you go off on how members are dodging their duties and how imms play favoritism, you should remember that there's way more that goes on inside the cb channel than you, an outsider, can know. For example, the Sithius incident, he's a stacked warlord, so why did all the Justices run to our cabal first? Maybe it was to figure out a plan to catch him... or maybe it was to play rock-paper-scissors to see who will go and take Sithius one on one until someone brings him down. I believe every Justice member is trying to do his or her best, having a special guard doesn't automatically make you invincible. I'd take a stallion over a special guard, guards don't help me dodge or save moves or anything like that. As for the looting thief incident, yes, Justices are played by people who can make mistakes as well, it's not fullproof in anyway, if you happen to disagree with a Justice's decision, just note it, the imms rarely ever cut us slack for anything that goes against us.

[Hamp]

I don't care what you say might go on in cabal chat, being Groq I have never been attacked by one justice at a time. Well I take that back Arishel came after me alone once. Everyone either leaves or waits for more to come around. The only time i'll get attacked by a Justice by himself is if I go and attack him in town first. I do agree with burzuk being friends with a couple justices, they do get screwed from some times the littlest things and it is a hard job. But that job was yours to choose and each justice should come after you no matter the odds.

[Talisman]

Personally, I think it's tacky to take the performance of a player OOC. If a Justice wants to rp himself as corrupt (or cowardly), he should be able to. As soon as a character in the game brings IC proof of his wrongdoings, he will no doubt be kicked from the cabal. But if he is ready to accept the consequences, he should be able to play his character that way without being persecuted OOC on the forums. It shouldn't be considered cheating to go against rp restrictions, it should just have dire enough IC repercussions that most people aren't willing to take the risk.

[Matrix]

Actually, when I wanted to kill some justices I'd just go and attack their cabal. There's absolutely nothing they can do about that, they simply must defend the cabal when someone attacks.

When I was taking on three justices at once, I went to the Gnome Dungeon and summoned one in. Then, I proceeded to beat the shit out of his n00b ass while the rest tried to summon me out of a nosummon maze. Then I rinsed and repeated with the next one, and the final one ran back to his cabal where he got an assbeating.

The current justices really aren't that bad. They are a little cowardly, but that's because they're newer players. All they need is a good role model and some strict rule enforcement to kick them into line. I mean, you would hardly be complaining about justice cowardice if, back in the day, you had to deal with Fedus hiding behind guild guardians and bringing Warlords INTO his cabal to deal with raiders.

[Rezakhan]

Three responses:
1. I did deal with Feadus back in the day hiding behind guild guardians(though not nearly as bad as you had it when the warlord was after you too, Ive seen the long), and the conduct these days is just as comparable in terms of hiding.
2. For Burzuk, I certainly am not accusing anyone of favoritism towards Justices--just pointing out some flaws that I havent seen dealt with in game yet.
3. Sithius was not a stacked warlord--he was partly naked, and became stacked because he managed to kill Naugrim. Then the rest of you ran off and hid. Also, I know what it takes to plan a strategy--a few minutes at most, not the 10 that you all were hiding in there.

Im not saying anyone should be kicked out or disciplined in Justice because of what I say on the forum--Im hoping that by pointing out what I have noticed, it will mean people will change their behavior when they see mistakes they have made.

[Ar_History]

LaBruinClub.. you said you would take a stallion over a special guard!
Whatever! I'd chose special guard any and every day of the week! First, one bash off stallions and then no defenses and stallions are week anyway.

[LABruinCub]

I donno tho, with a stallion, really helps with running around, plus it's a lot riskier to bash a justice on a stallion than it is to trip them with a guard. The guard is way better in terms of being able to apprehend out of pk criminals, so they are really close...

[Spalino]

Well I dunno... justices were good I liked them as recent as a few months ago but then the new ass-load of recruits came in and their not the smartest peanut in the turd if you know what I mean. I think it was a total mistake to make Sasarai high enquisiter. He's a moron, it took em over and hour to realize that he could flag me for helping groq. Most all the justices cant track worth a god damn either. I also think its fucked that justices dont get in trouble as much. I've seen justices take bribes and give away looted eq so on an so forth and Endeniss gets kicked out because she attacks a vamp on the outskirts of Darkhaven. I could understand all that if she was a shitty justice but she wasn't she was one of the best that has graced AR in awhile... I dunno im rambling but I think there need to be a re-evaluation of the justices by the imms... who knows maybe im wrong but im sure just about everyone in here save imms(because they never agree with anyone) would back me on this.

[Knight of Valor]

JUSTICES NEED TO GO!!!!!!!!!. they are overpowered and they think they opwn the game. One full looted my corpse and gave half(2 wear rares) to a newbi sold 2 of my rares and sac 2 of them then gave me the left overs and said that I was a loser and walked off. and all i did was steal from a player that i returned the item to before hand.

[Flying Hampster of Doom]

I dont think the Justices need to go, that is just you being angry at them for takin your stuff. After having around ten or more at the level of 50 plus around 100 or so at 45 or below, you kinda get used to them jackin crap.

[b00mslang]

Anyway, since when did legion shadow's stop tripping?
They used to actually do something, but now I hardly use them, especially with their huge mana cost and mediocre duration.

Yeah, and wtf, I'm a nub?

[Lydana]

Eld and Burzuk have already said this, but let me repeat it again since it doesn't seem to be coming through to you guys:

If you don't break the law, Justice will never be a problem for you.
If you chose to break the law, expect to have Justice hound you with whatever powers they have. Its their job.
They are SUPPOSED to take your things. Its in the cabal rules, and its part of the punishment for being wanted. They are not supposed to trade those items that were taken though.

Just think of it this way. If anyone, in ANY other cabal (save perhaps heralds and warlords) were to kill you, then you would lose all of your equipment. Geez, if anyone at all were to PK you, cabal or not, you would probalby lose your eq.

I really have no pity for those of you who are whining. As has been said many times before: don't break the law and you won't have any problems with Justice.

[Burzuk]

Justices are NOT supposed to give away or sell items they've confiscated--they're to either keep them for personal use, use it them help out cabalmates, or destroy them as a punishment to the apprehended criminal. If you see Justices misusing confiscated items, notify the Imms at once via a note, complaint, or pray (ONE pray at the time it happens, do not spam).

[Flying Hampster of Doom]

Lydana.. girly I love ya.. but this..

[Burzuk]

I see both as the same thing:

Choose to be evil, and you can't complain when attacked by Knights.

Choose to attack in town, and you can't complain when attacked by Justices.

As I've mentioned before, other cabals (Legion, Assassins, etc) will attack you for circumstances entirely out of your own choosing, so if anyone should complain about being the target of mandated aggression, it should be about other cabals and not about Justice.

Frankly it's clear to me that people are being disgruntled with the current crop of players we have as Justices, rather than having actual principled objections to the concepts behind the Justice cabal.

[sweet_canadian_mullet]

My personaly objection is that there is much too big a penalty for being wanted...Sure justices get some crazy shit..Oh well. Whatever...You got wanted...no biggie. But The 5-12k penalty...the taking of 2-all of your stuff. All your gold...There are a lot of penalties. I think the gold should stick and the penalty maybe...but I think the taking your stuff should be slacked a lil bit. And the penalty slacked. But whatever. God damn my tooth hurts.

[Davairus]

"Career criminals" should be played at 50, not in niche range. Low level characters that get themselves into a huge unrankable exphole will end up denied for being trash sooner or later - especially when they start getting wanted without even trying to get the necessary equipment to defend themselves with. Before you ask, yes, even thieves. For that and other reasons (the #1 being - you can opt out of being wanted if you can't handle the consequences) I am opposed to exp loss being lifted from special guard deaths. There's plenty of other good reasons why already been stated, and not just by the imms, that should indicate that you might as well let the matter drop.

As for gold, well there is nothing stopping you put it in the bank if you want to keep it. Would you like a more realistic gold system? Because I can just as easily have the bank freeze its account for criminals. I can also take a deduction straight from banks, and the justice gets whatever in your body (from 0 to whatever you like) for his troubles. There are many other ways I can think of that this could be worse. I see a very light penalty, not a harsh one.

[Sebryn]

Guys, it might be frustrating but Justices aren't going anywhere. They're not sitting in town sending people tells, ASKING them to break a law. Every time someone gets wanted, it's either because they a) were too stupid or unobservant to notice the Justice(s) sitting in town, or b) wanted to get 'wanted' to play their character. In either case, nobody typed in 'murder <player>' or 'steal <item>' or whatever... you did it yourself.

Oh, also... Burzuk wrote:

[Knight of Valor]

I think the punishment for stealing or minor crimes like that should NOT be death but more like a fine of some sort.