Jotun Vuln Removal

[lionSpyre]

And let's round and say you can get maybe 50-60 extra health 1-prac'ing a paladin. That may get you to 1K hp, sure, but you'll still be rocking 700 mana.

[hamsandwich]

I like lionspyre's material vuln idea. Simply because making material vulns easier to understand across the board is a benefit to the entire game, not just jotun balance.
Personally I have no idea wtf is going on with material vulns (every time you come back to this game after awhile away you basically become a newb again because of the changes and how tough it can be to scrounge up info about them - but I digress)

Fire vuln makes sense thematically, but man there are a LOT of great fire damage weapons in the game. That would make it a very easily exploitable vuln, beyond ice vuln, and only just below bash/slash vulns. You gotta keep in mind the prevalence of weapons when talking vulns, because its a huge part of the vulns for every other race (except the bash/slash crazy ass vulns lol)

Taking a stat away might be reasonable too I guess. I remember when I played a dwarf warrior Justice a ton of years ago they had 22 str (which would be 103 total, what jotun has now) but that got reduced to 21. Maybe jotun needs the same treatment?

[lionSpyre]

Thanks ham. The thing I like about changing material weaknesses as well is it adds an extra layer of strategy to the game.

For instance, fighting a storm giant healer? Probably best to use a material weakness, since they have protection and armor going for them.

But fight a storm warrior? Well their AC is pretty crap and they have no protection, so probably best to stick with a mental vuln.

[Davairus]

Next patch I am intending to make a barrage change. Its pretty straight-forward, and I think its an obvious step. The change should be to make hobble required before barrage, and also probably do the same for sideswipe.

if you guys want to discuss jotun now with the early anticipation of knock-on effects of the above, that'd be great. I'm sure something will be needed, as they have +2 total stats over humans, and nicely distributed for pally/dk. It seems a bit premature to actually do anything at all though, after there has been only 1 fight won by a jotun.

[Xenyar]

Like Dav has said many times... if it's too good to be true, it probably is.
Leta keep it simple and go with that...

Dwarf paladin has been called OP for as long as I've been around.. even removed as a race option for a long time. So the dwarf became a giant, got stronger, smarter, probably healthier(4 pracs per level converted to HP), can one hand oversized weapons, picked up a racial legacy, and lost the vuln... We'll call it "The Jotun".

[lionSpyre]

Paladins are OP dude, or at least they look that way against non-protection evils. And while Jotuns look great on paper (which is why I‘m in support of some kind of nerf), we haven’t seen them exactly wrecking face. I’m just not convinced that they’re all that more OP than a dwarf Paladin or eradicator.

See how this Paladin does against a Keeper, or a neutral Warlord.

[Xenyar]

I know paladins inside and out. Had one, human. They are beefsticks. In open space, never had a problem fighting keepers or warlords. Lost to Thoom. Probably my only neutral loss.

Early March I expressed concerns about jotuns losing their vuln. So whatever is going on, is not a new topic. Looks like a continuation from what I started in March. If possible, I'd most certainly go back in time and change Rhoa to a non-vuln jotun in a heartbeat, and feel even more invincible.

Original jotun topic for reference below.... I'll bow out now, you guys can go at it.

https://abandonedrealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14130&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

[Ashlyn]

Paladins in general are OP. Jotuns aren’t really special there. That having been said, paladins have very stringent gameplay restrictions for that.

I’d be for Jotuns having a less exploitable vuln. I’m all for fire. Piercing was just gross. High average daggers just destroyed them.

[Ozaru]

You can have game play restrictions, that doesn't mean it gets enforced. Take Temy my elf paladin who broke the terms of a duel of honor. You all thought he should be outcasted. Ceridwel was like nope good job. Garbage in Garbage out.

[Davairus]

You can't just blame Ceridwel for that. If you know you deliberately fucked up a paladin RP then you need to delete it immediately and leave the game clear of your disgrace. Knowingly putting it on Ceridwel to have to do it for you is entering bannable offence territory and you'll find me much less accomodating. Garbage in, garbage kicked out with a vengeance. Basically, don't do that ever again.

[Ozaru]

im confused, you have said this over and over again that rp is enforced by the immortals who the players falls under especially when it comes to paladins. Why the change now?

[Ozaru]

And yes, I deliberately did that just to see if rp truly is enforced and its not, because like I said ceridwel had no problem with it and you obviously do. So what that means is that you can get at least 1 bullshit kill to ruin someones character while going ooc or out of rp.

[Davairus]

Its called acting in "bad faith" ozaru

[Xenyar]

Don't get outcasted, imm staff gets blasted by you. If you did get outacasted, you'd say you were being singled out.
Why even go down this road of testing the immortals patience with intentional shit RP stuff like this?

One death does not define a character...no matter how it happens. YOU define your character. Nobody else.

[BlackWidow]

Temy also died twice back-to-back to Militha some time after his dishonorable actions, and was never seen again after the second death. Militha initially witnessed his failure to uphold the terms of the duel, then killed him one time later before saying she would accept his surrender. Since he said he would be after her again soon after the first death, she killed him again, and this time she looted more thoroughly (as a member of Strife, she cared to some extent about his disgraceful actions).

If you have a problem with somebody's actions, RP it out, and feel free to PK them if it's appropriate. The staff don't have to solve all of our problems!


Getting back on topic... I think that the issue with the jotun piercing vulnerability initially was that it was simply too high a damage multiplier and this resulted in ridiculous results like my fight with Paeix causing an OBLITERATES with a single murder attack. I feel a better solution would be to revert that vulnerability, but also make it marginally smaller. For example, if piercing used to give a 200% damage multiplier, maybe we could try lowering it to 180% damage multiplier and fine-tune from there if necessary (instead of making drastic changes).

[Davairus]

The fire vulnerability that's already been suggested makes thematic sense, no need to mess with vuln multipliers.

[Phostan]

I mean, fire does make the most obvious sense, but what if we make them vulnerable to every other day of the week? So they take increased damage on Tues/Thurs/Sat and every other Sunday? That seems reasonable too.

[BlackWidow]

I don't like adding fire as the vulnerability because it makes them too closely resemble treants. Treants are vulnerable to fire, but like jotuns they resist cold and are large size... At that point, the differences are mainly in the form of a resistance (arcane for jotuns, physical weapons for treants), the stat block, and the fact that treants and jotuns don't share any classes.

[Davairus]

From what I have seen so far, there are three other players who put forward support for having a fire vuln - those are phostan, ashlyn, lionspyre so far. in fact phostan proposed this already weeks ago. And then add the fact that maybe treants could just have an acid vuln that temporarily limits their regeneration instead of just dealing a bazillion damage in 2 rounds (regen loss is still damage). I mean, does every vuln have to just be multiplying damage by some ridiculous amount? It gets kinda old.

[Dogran]

I agree with that, I also like the fire vuln idea. It makes sense to counter the cold resistance.