Jotun Vuln Removal

[Dogran]

Hey guys, was asked to post these points below, by another person not wanting to post on the subject with their forum account, thus outting their character. The points they listed are as follows:

Large size, can wield over-sized weapons in one hand.
High con=better Hp.
23 wisdom=higher mana and 4 pracs per rank.
Combination of wis and con=top shelf shield block. High strength and wisdom= top shelf parry.
1000hp jotun paladins and dark knights is obtainable, along with 800+ mana.
INT is still good enough for 2 practicing if you want.
With some single practicing and converting all those extra trains to HP, 1k hp isn't off the table. No other race for pally/dk can get close to those hp/mana levels.
Unless you're rolling a specific race for RP reasons for your dk/paly, there is not good enough incentives to roll with anything other than jotun(maybe a drow DK). Jotun offers too much, with no downside. Throw in resist arcane and diamond skin racial legacy to boot. If any race, this one should have retained it's vuln.

(My 2c, Jotuns are a powerful race and they were to begin with. With Adamantium only removing resistances, I don't know of any adamantite weapons that deal arcane or cold damage, which defeats any purpose to them having that as a material vuln. I feel the stab vuln was too severe, but something SHOULD be there for all the benefits.)

Discuss:

[Esivole]

The other races with that high of stats have severe vulns. i.e. Illithid and Gnome. I don't see why this one doesn't already have one (or in that, why it was removed)

[Ashlyn]

They should be weak to fire. Also hand to hand attacks from fire giants.

[twerpalina]

it always takes someone to do good on a race for these things to pop up

ps: slith op too

[Davairus]

We had plans laid for a future jotun nerf anyways but they are the paladin big boi option to take to be most effective vs other races of similar size. I like the idea of them being clumsy vs smaller races, but as an achilees heel themed tendency to just get cocky and arrogant, leading to making mistakes, rather than out of a clumsy physiology like giants... more of a conceit thing. perhaps losing a weapon selection or two because they are from a foreign universe... although who is to say what weapons a foreign culture would not learn, and paladin selection is already not wide. Let me also point out that I already thought about adding the fire vuln before and soon realized the "fire with fire" set will clearly mitigate that vuln for paladins. It would be a good fit but it might not be what you are hoping for. A vulnerability to disease (foreign physiology) could also work. Another thing that is interesting in the jotun mythology is they have a race split (eternal army vs repentors) so that they could be made more distrustful of other races and emphasis on being hardcore aggressive to jotuns of the other persuasion.

[lionSpyre]

So I have a suggestion that is hopefully easier to code and holds true to the original intention:

Material weakness is weird as patched. It seems like everyone’s gets treated differently. Elf’s weird with dodging iron? What about non-dodging elves? It also says Jotuns have a vuln to adamantine AND it bypasses resistances, which is exactly what weaknesses are supposed to do, so the wording is confusing.

My suggestion is to bypass all the special cases and just say that material weaknesses bypass resistances and AC (to a certain degree). This would make them more impactful against hybrid classes (especially Jotuns). But EVERY class benefits from AC to some degree. Hopefully this is something that’s easy to code too and doesn’t require any special conditions. Thoughts?

[lionSpyre]

Also I mentioned this before and I’ll say it again, but another nerf idea is simply to lower their dex, wis and/or int by one.

[Phostan]

Listen, Jotun pierce vuln was removed a few months ago, because I specifically asked for it to be removed. I said "Listen Dav, I am pretty dogshit at pk'ing these last few years, let me smash some booty at 50 with a jotun, with no vulns." and thus pierce vuln was removed. And we ain't fixing it until I get my Jotun trained up and to 50 so I can stack some bodies, and that's the end of the discussion.

[Dogran]

Lol @phostan thinking that handicap is enough for you to secure kills.

[Phostan]

You were a wet bloodstain on the end of Triyan's mace when we fought dude, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that brave talk.

[lionSpyre]

…back to the topic at hand here…

Another way of thinking about my suggestion is that damage from material weaknesses can only be reduced by so much (50% by sanc plus some limit). So this way it would bypass resistances, protection, AC, etc.

Anyways that’s my two cents. I guess y’all can determine if that’s viable or not.

[twerpalina]

Make them weak under direct sun, like wumpires.

[Dogran]

Haha just talking crap phostan, definitely don't remember triyan in any shape or form though.

[lionSpyre]

Also... just as a thought experiment...

I wonder how this conversation turns around if we say remove fire giant ice vuln and replace it with a material weakness. This would put them on par with other giants (stone giants only deal with mental vuln, and storm giants have both mental vuln and wood weakness).

[Xenyar]

I can only imagine Rhoa with 15-20% more health and mana, and that other stuff....

Reduce wisdom, add vuln. That kind of natural health should not be available to these classes. Two classes that were already very, very powerful, got a huge buff with jotun vuln erased. IMO jotun DK would be stronger than Paladin. Years ago Pip had a jotun dk...he called it an absolute monster truck, even with the vuln.

[lionSpyre]

I think that health is definitely an over exaggeration. 1K hp and 800 mana?! Show me the log.

[lionSpyre]

Here we go, from Trovo's last log:

943/943hp 574/695m

I'm guessing that's with a leader flag as well. He might be wearing some saves since Nelrask is a vampire and Glorbag was a shaman hanging around, but still... a very far cry from 1000hp and 800 mana. Even if you one prac, you're not going to touch either of those stats.

[Xenyar]

If he single practiced he'd hit 1k. Pretty sure BF said he had like 900 mana or some crazy number on his jotun? I think he was exaggerating...who knows. From Trovo's health, it shows 1k wouldn't be hard to get.

[Xenyar]

In my opinion the hp and mana doesn't mean as much to me if the vuln had stayed in place. That would be the balance to the the race's perks. Probably why it was there in the first place...

[lionSpyre]

I think the vuln was removed because we rarely saw any viable PK Jotuns, except maybe Paeix? And I don't recall a log of him ever taking down Kryton, so maybe he was outmatched there too. I can't really say.

Don't get me wrong, I think something needs to change here. Jotun stats are very good, and either (a) material weaknesses needs to be more effective to compensate, (b) add a vuln like disease or fire, and/or (c) lower their stats. But what I'm worried about here is the pendulum swinging too far based off of N = 1 and Jotun becoming not viable again.